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Brexit deal

By *orum reader  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Does the proposed deal achieve what you voted for ?

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Either you are a close [and not very discreet] confidant or Mrs May, or you have No 10 bugged, how do you know what the deal proposes. Not all cabinet ministers will know until this afternoon. A lot of speculation but no facts known as yet.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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You are absolutely right NK the final proposal in its entirety has not been published but that hasn't stopped people reporting or commenting on it as if they know what's in it.

As negotiations have been going on some of the more mundane agreements have been briefed and some edited copies were circulated yesterday.

Legal advisers and experts in constitutional law have seen excerpts.

Undoubtedly whatever the truth, the press and commentators will say what they want just like they did during the referendum and the British Public will have to try and work it out for themselves.

It's not easy reading and I doubt there will be many who make it to the end!

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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My concern with it at the minute is that if reports are correct and it is 500 pages, will cabinet ministers etc have had enough time to read it and take it in before having to back it or reject it as i believe they are requested to do by this afternoon.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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Cabinet ministers have had regular briefings and have seen legal advice on issues given to the PM.

It's really only a few items that will be the finalised position and by 2pm they will all have had a face to face with the PM to ask questions and make their position known.

The previous briefings on finalised positions are what prompted some cabinet members to resign. It's by no means not all new to them.

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By *orum reader  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Mr NK I have no exceptional insights but as every paper and tv programme which is politically based seem to be discussing the ( leaked) details several MP's and commentators have discussed the details today on tv some from both sides of the debate suggesting they would vote against the "deal"

It will be interesting to see if the headlines today are accurate or " fake news"

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Thank you for the explanation Moondog, again various news reports speculating on what is going on.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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That's all it is speculation at moment just got to wait now

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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All those numpties baying for a referendum on the final deal. Do they really expect every voting member of the lectorate to read all 500 pages, understand and absorb it, before voting? the only winners then would be Specsavers and Aspirin manufactures as everyone will be suffering from eye strain and headaches. That's always assuming they haven't given up the will to live

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"All those numpties baying for a referendum on the final deal. Do they really expect every voting member of the lectorate to read all 500 pages, understand and absorb it, before voting? the only winners then would be Specsavers and Aspirin manufactures as everyone will be suffering from eye strain and headaches. That's always assuming they haven't given up the will to live "

totally agree Mr nk

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By *orthwalesmale1  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"My concern with it at the minute is that if reports are correct and it is 500 pages, will cabinet ministers etc have had enough time to read it and take it in before having to back it or reject it as i believe they are requested to do by this afternoon."

It doesn't really matter if they don't have time to read it all today they can accept it today and then change their minds at a later date. If you think back that's exactly what happened at Chequers.

On the day they all agreed to accept Chequers it was only later we had some resignations. I can see the same thing happening this time too.

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By *ikkey69  (M) 19 weeks ago

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The PM and all her “remain “ cronies are a national disgrace.

The Democratic decision from the people of this nation voted to leave the EU, use our own laws, trade with who WE want to and in short, the nation put 2 fingers up to the EU.

Now because certain ministers dont like the result, ( May incuded) they are determinded that the people who all voted to leave will now be ignored !!

Democracy ?? Dont make me laugh !!!

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"The PM and all her “remain “ cronies are a national disgrace.

The Democratic decision from the people of this nation voted to leave the EU, use our own laws, trade with who WE want to and in short, the nation put 2 fingers up to the EU.

Now because certain ministers dont like the result, ( May incuded) they are determinded that the people who all voted to leave will now be ignored !!

Democracy ?? Dont make me laugh !!!"

totally agree with you there mike

Also if Mrs may can't get this Deal past her cabinet sure she fail to get past parliament

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Breaking news on sky, Cabinet backs draft brexit agreement.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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I saw the PM's address on channel four news.

At every single stage just about every commentator has said the negotiations will fail, the Government will fall, Mrs May will lose her job and remarkably none of these things have happened yet. There has been open skepticism that any deal would actually be agreed.

There's a long way to go but we are in a remarkable and historic moment.

The way the country is divided and the strength of feeling about the issues means everyone will have to compromise and inevitably everyone will be feeling betrayed.

It was always going to be either everybody wins or everybody loses and the positions people have taken have meant it has to be everyone is compromised.

We'll see if the deal gets through but it is progress.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I saw the PM's address on channel four news.

At every single stage just about every commentator has said the negotiations will fail, the Government will fall, Mrs May will lose her job and remarkably none of these things have happened yet. There has been open skepticism that any deal would actually be agreed.

There's a long way to go but we are in a remarkable and historic moment.

The way the country is divided and the strength of feeling about the issues means everyone will have to compromise and inevitably everyone will be feeling betrayed.

It was always going to be either everybody wins or everybody loses and the positions people have taken have meant it has to be everyone is compromised.

We'll see if the deal gets through but it is progress.

"

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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The agreement has now been published.

I think it's against the rules to include website addresses but if you go to The Guardian they have a handy summary that will take you straight there.

Happy reading

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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At least steps forward are being made whether are all positive is a different story.

Remember the cabinet are hand picked by mrs may mps who she thinks she can trust admit we would all do that i would ,but doesn't mean they have to agree of course .

The time when it has to go through parliament is going to be the toughest test where are not as loyal .

Got to give mrs may credit for stick to her guns through all this difficult time without her usually uturning to what we know of anyway

This doesn't mean i like her as leader now either

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Lets hope our governments prop agrees with deal (Dup)

If they take their support we will be doomed

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Not going well for Mrs.May two resignations this morning and its only 9.A.M. is the vote of no confidence imminant?

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Anyone else notice that the DUP leader has undergone a very successful sex change.

Whilst interviewing a Northern Ireland politician, on the BBC News last night, the caption came up 'Arlene Foster'

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By *orum reader  (M) 19 weeks ago

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At 9 am this morning the 2nd minister resigns !!

According to Dominic Rabb the EU have a veto on the backstop so we could not walk away

I have not read the whole agreement but it certainly looks like there is no chance if this agreement being accepted by Parliament

Looks like " no deal" is the only option left

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Yes, we seem to be driving over a cliff without any brakes. Hope Leavers are happy with the mess they have created.

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By *orum reader  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Yes, we seem to be driving over a cliff without any brakes. Hope Leavers are happy with the mess they have created."

I think we should all stop blaming each other,we need to all pull together and move on from the chaos

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By *udekeith  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Yes, we seem to be driving over a cliff without any brakes. Hope Leavers are happy with the mess they have created."

I can’t agree that it’s the leavers who have created the mess, the blame must surely lie at the feet of the negotiators who seem incapable of negotiating or understanding the complexity of need to ensure that the union of the UK can be maintained. With a bit of luck, she who is ultimately responsible will be gone within days.

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By *ssexbill  (M) 19 weeks ago

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As someone who doesn't care if we leave or stay I'd make the following observations. It doesn't matter either way to the ordinary person, we are going to get screwed by either parliament or Brussels either way. There won't be anything better for us. As to whether it was a democratic choice or not I'm not sure. All the voting seems to be based on packs of lies by Both Remainers and leavers...where is the democracy in that!

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Esther McVey Work and Pensions Secretary latest to resign, surely this can only be going one way!

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By *ollydee   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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One good thing has come out of this then, the back of that hateful woman.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Have we got a government by the time I post this?

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By *orum reader  (M) 19 weeks ago

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I believe it's now 5 possibly 6 ministers resigned today

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Just the four as far as im aware, May addressing the commons reguards Brexit Deal now.

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By *orum reader  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Suella braverman

Dominic Raab

Esther mcvay

Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Shailesh care

I thought I heard another but those are the ones the BBC have been listing whilst the PM was talking in Parliament

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By *awtyCawty  (M) 19 weeks ago

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They better be careful, at this rate the Labour scum are looking like a viable alternative lol

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By *awtyCawty  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Yes, we seem to be driving over a cliff without any brakes. Hope Leavers are happy with the mess they have created."

If it’s anyone’s fault it’s the endless bitching and whining from the remoaners and their fellow snowflakes.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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It people just constantly blaming Leavers by remainers that's got us in shit

Instead of accepting result just compained for a second vote like a bad loser

Should have all got together and backed Mrs may so at least we had a good deal put forward

But no the cry babies that are the remainers have done everything to sabotage it

And maybe Mrs may could be ring leader

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Yes, we seem to be driving over a cliff without any brakes. Hope Leavers are happy with the mess they have created.

If it’s anyone’s fault it’s the endless bitching and whining from the remoaners and their fellow snowflakes."

exactly

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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How long to dup remove they prop

Labour just maybe in power in no time at this rate

All because Of picking a weak leader

Mrs may she's the real reason things have gone tips up as it's her that's been leading this mess

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Anyone else notice that the DUP leader has undergone a very successful sex change.

Whilst interviewing a Northern Ireland politician, on the BBC News last night, the caption came up 'Arlene Foster' "

wonder how that got paid for

Wonder if it as anything to do with our hard earned tax being sent they way to prop up this damn government

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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I always said being PM during this whole fraught Brexit affair was going to be a poisoned chalice and I am being proved right. What annoys me is why appear to agree last night and then renege on it this morning. Very disappointed with Dominic Raab bearing in mind he has worked hard to get a deal and always appeared to be working closely with Mrs May.

Where do we go from here? Negotiating another deal then perhaps another is going to take forever and we leave the EU in less than 5 months.

I listened to Sir Keir Starmer on tv this morning. He is probably by far the most intelligent member of the entire Labour front bench. Yet all he did was drone on, in his usual monotonous manner, and said precisely nothing.

I'm deeply saddened and very worried about the whole affair

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I always said being PM during this whole fraught Brexit affair was going to be a poisoned chalice and I am being proved right. What annoys me is why appear to agree last night and then renege on it this morning. Very disappointed with Dominic Raab bearing in mind he has worked hard to get a deal and always appeared to be working closely with Mrs May.

Where do we go from here? Negotiating another deal then perhaps another is going to take forever and we leave the EU in less than 5 months.

I listened to Sir Keir Starmer on tv this morning. He is probably by far the most intelligent member of the entire Labour front bench. Yet all he did was drone on, in his usual monotonous manner, and said precisely nothing.

I'm deeply saddened and very worried about the whole affair"

We haven't heard anything intelligent from senior party members of any party. As you say May accepted the poisoned chalice and surpringly survived this long.

I'm a lifelong Labour voter who also voted for Brexit but May has my utmost admiration for her energy and resilience and as a Brexit voter who wants the best deal possible, and not a jump ship and hope for the best, I believe she has struggled very hard for a good leaving deal when everyone on all sides has been fighting her in one way or another.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I always said being PM during this whole fraught Brexit affair was going to be a poisoned chalice and I am being proved right. What annoys me is why appear to agree last night and then renege on it this morning. Very disappointed with Dominic Raab bearing in mind he has worked hard to get a deal and always appeared to be working closely with Mrs May.

Where do we go from here? Negotiating another deal then perhaps another is going to take forever and we leave the EU in less than 5 months.

I listened to Sir Keir Starmer on tv this morning. He is probably by far the most intelligent member of the entire Labour front bench. Yet all he did was drone on, in his usual monotonous manner, and said precisely nothing.

I'm deeply saddened and very worried about the whole affair"

Mr nk

You are right

Why did they agree to deal yesterday just to resign next day they had a chance to put their case over

And you are pulling labour when conservative are in such a mess

Only one person put this deal that people are so against, well what did we expect from our remainer PM

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I always said being PM during this whole fraught Brexit affair was going to be a poisoned chalice and I am being proved right. What annoys me is why appear to agree last night and then renege on it this morning. Very disappointed with Dominic Raab bearing in mind he has worked hard to get a deal and always appeared to be working closely with Mrs May.

Where do we go from here? Negotiating another deal then perhaps another is going to take forever and we leave the EU in less than 5 months.

I listened to Sir Keir Starmer on tv this morning. He is probably by far the most intelligent member of the entire Labour front bench. Yet all he did was drone on, in his usual monotonous manner, and said precisely nothing.

I'm deeply saddened and very worried about the whole affair

We haven't heard anything intelligent from senior party members of any party. As you say May accepted the poisoned chalice and surpringly survived this long.

I'm a lifelong Labour voter who also voted for Brexit but May has my utmost admiration for her energy and resilience and as a Brexit voter who wants the best deal possible, and not a jump ship and hope for the best, I believe she has struggled very hard for a good leaving deal when everyone on all sides has been fighting her in one way or another. "

for one Mrs may compained for remaining so she's a remainer

2 she's just stubborn or sabotageingredients deal so we remain in some way

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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May has always been very fair and has certainly never given the slightest impression she is a remainer. In many ways quite the opposite. She has been fighting very hard to get a good deal for leavers and for the country.

The real enemies of us who voted to leave are the politicians who big themselves up criticising others but in reality keeping themselves safe. Stand up Boris you cowardly lump.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Danny both main parties are very divided on the subject of Brexit. A free vote in the HoC on whether we remained in the EU or left, would produce a remain vote. It is going to be impossible to produce a deal that suits everyone and the only alternatives I've heard so far are that we either leave with no deal or stay which is virtually impossible since the mechanism is in place for us to leave on March 29th 2019. The only other ideas I am hearing are fudge and waffle.

Leaving the EU is rather like a neuro-surgeon trying to sort out an intricate nervous system. 'Pulling up the drawbridge' as once suggested by Nigel Farage, could be a recipe for disaster. A total leap in the dark.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"May has always been very fair and has certainly never given the slightest impression she is a remainer. In many ways quite the opposite. She has been fighting very hard to get a good deal for leavers and for the country.

The real enemies of us who voted to leave are the politicians who big themselves up criticising others but in reality keeping themselves safe. Stand up Boris you cowardly lump. "

Mrs may compained for remaining you don't do that if you want to leave only complete idiot do that and Mrs may is not an idiot

So she's a remainer

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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By the way Danny, Mrs May did not campaign to stay in the EU. Yes when asked she said that she was in favour of staying in but she took no part in the actual campaign. Perhaps hedging her bets ready for what was the outcome.

As for this ridiculous suggestion that she is trying to sabotage Brexit I could only liken that to a captain scuttling his only ship, full of crew and passengers, in the middle of the ocean.

Remember she applied for Article 50 whereby the leave process begins. She also tried to bypass parliament just in case they voted against Article 50. If you remember that ghastly interfering woman, Gina Millar, went to the high court to insist on a parliamentary vote.

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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From what i can make out, and i could be very wrong, the biggest problem seems to be the length of the transition period and the backstop which doesn't appear to give an end date, to give Mrs.May some credit she has repeated several times this morning, there will be no second vote and britain will leave the EU March 2019.

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Jacob Rees-Mogg has submitted a letter of no confidence in the P.M to the Chairman of the 1922 committee is the latest breaking news, is this a good thing and is it likely to esculate, personally i feel caught between the devil and the deep blue sea in terms of its clear this brexit deal is unlikely to get through Parliament from what ive seen and heard this morning, but i still feel it is completely the wrong time to challange the leadership and Mrs.May should be afforded the option of renegotiating with the EU.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Sounding very much like the end of the road and we could have a prime minister who has not been voted in. Surely time to have am emergency general election.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Jacob Rees-Mogg has submitted a letter of no confidence in the P.M to the Chairman of the 1922 committee is the latest breaking news, is this a good thing and is it likely to esculate, personally i feel caught between the devil and the deep blue sea in terms of its clear this brexit deal is unlikely to get through Parliament from what ive seen and heard this morning, but i still feel it is completely the wrong time to challange the leadership and Mrs.May should be afforded the option of renegotiating with the EU."

Just seen Rees-Mogg spouting - the words that come to mind are 'pompous twat'.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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I've met Jacob Rees-Mogg and liked him but I don't think this is such a wise move on his behalf at this juncture. The Conservatives have not got a majority in parliament and there is no obvious alternative leader. Wrangling in the government and parliament and the possibility of a general election would probably do untold damage to the whole Brexit procedure.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Calling it 'Brexit procedure' is surely a euphemism too far. Looks like total chaos to me and getting worse by the hour today.

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By (user no longer on site) 19 weeks ago

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"Sounding very much like the end of the road and we could have a prime minister who has not been voted in. Surely time to have am emergency general election."

When have we ever voted a PM in ? You vote for an MP or party who can change their leader whenever they like.

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By  *enior 74    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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It's not the leaver's that have caused the problem we voted Out means out its having a non brexit government that have caused the disastrous state we are in now

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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I think you have to look behind the scenes to see the real motivations behind today's actions.

Dom Raab has been frustrated from the start. He has long believed that he was not allowed to negotiate to the extent he wanted to by the other officials and aides of the government. He is an extremist Brexiteer and when he accepted the post he was told (and agreed) he would not be given free reign. Above all he wants a hard no-deal Brexit and his resignation is to force that, and to position himself as a future leader and PM.

Mr Rees Mogg has said continually that he supports the PM but not her policies. He wants no-deal and his letter attempting to trigger a no-confidence vote is an attempt to get that.

There is real fear that this vote might get through. That's why extremists in the party are doing everything they can to get a crash out with no-deal.

MPs on all sides are desperate not to have the vote on the deal because if they vote it down they know they are going to have to explain why and face de-selection.

No 10 is counting on two things:

1. Enough flesh appears on the future framework to support What the PM is saying and force MPs to change their minds

2. When faced with no deal or this deal, MPs will in all conscience have to pick the deal as picking no-deal is not a feasible option.

It's a game of chicken. Mrs May will not waver unless she is deposed, and if she is deposed, the country will never forgive the Tories for creating chaos when we need unity.

It's fascinating and horribly gripping.

Any outcome that is not accepting the deal will be a terrible disaster.

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*hris51234 By  *hris51234    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Interesting development, Michael Gove has been offered Brexit Sec job but says he will only take it IF he can renegotiate the draft agreement, something which Dominic Raab wanted to do but was denied which it's reported is why he resigned.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I think you have to look behind the scenes to see the real motivations behind today's actions.

Dom Raab has been frustrated from the start. He has long believed that he was not allowed to negotiate to the extent he wanted to by the other officials and aides of the government. He is an extremist Brexiteer and when he accepted the post he was told (and agreed) he would not be given free reign. Above all he wants a hard no-deal Brexit and his resignation is to force that, and to position himself as a future leader and PM.

Mr Rees Mogg has said continually that he supports the PM but not her policies. He wants no-deal and his letter attempting to trigger a no-confidence vote is an attempt to get that.

There is real fear that this vote might get through. That's why extremists in the party are doing everything they can to get a crash out with no-deal.

MPs on all sides are desperate not to have the vote on the deal because if they vote it down they know they are going to have to explain why and face de-selection.

No 10 is counting on two things:

1. Enough flesh appears on the future framework to support What the PM is saying and force MPs to change their minds

2. When faced with no deal or this deal, MPs will in all conscience have to pick the deal as picking no-deal is not a feasible option.

It's a game of chicken. Mrs May will not waver unless she is deposed, and if she is deposed, the country will never forgive the Tories for creating chaos when we need unity.

It's fascinating and horribly gripping.

Any outcome that is not accepting the deal will be a terrible disaster."

I agree and it does seem like we are heading for the 'terrible disaster' you refer to.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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I have just seen the press conference. I am not a supporter of Brexit, the Tories or May, but I have to say she chose a good speech-writer and gave a sincere performance. I do now have some admiration for her and now believe that she is sincerely doing her best in impossible circumstances and is certainly not set on selling the country down the river. Sadly the arch Brexiteers will still want the car to go over the cliff and have already cut the brake cables.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Certainly an impressive performance at the press conference. I don't think there is any question about her sincerity in trying to bring about a successful Brexit settlement. Also I cannot see an alternative. The no-deal , which the ardent Brexiteers seem to want, would be a leap in the dark and could have catastrophic effects on trade and industry in general. A lot of people are opposing this deal but not offering any alternative. We are up against 27 other countries and they all need to approve our withdrawal which is no easy task.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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I agree with you there. None of those who are against the deal has yet come up with a solution to the thorniest issues such as the Irish border. I would also add that at the press conference May showed a degree of grace, something sadly lacking among those who have come out to slag her off. By contrast, Farage was on the local radio today braying in a way that makes me realise his expensive private education did not do him much good.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I think you have to look behind the scenes to see the real motivations behind today's actions.

Dom Raab has been frustrated from the start. He has long believed that he was not allowed to negotiate to the extent he wanted to by the other officials and aides of the government. He is an extremist Brexiteer and when he accepted the post he was told (and agreed) he would not be given free reign. Above all he wants a hard no-deal Brexit and his resignation is to force that, and to position himself as a future leader and PM.

Mr Rees Mogg has said continually that he supports the PM but not her policies. He wants no-deal and his letter attempting to trigger a no-confidence vote is an attempt to get that.

There is real fear that this vote might get through. That's why extremists in the party are doing everything they can to get a crash out with no-deal.

MPs on all sides are desperate not to have the vote on the deal because if they vote it down they know they are going to have to explain why and face de-selection.

No 10 is counting on two things:

1. Enough flesh appears on the future framework to support What the PM is saying and force MPs to change their minds

2. When faced with no deal or this deal, MPs will in all conscience have to pick the deal as picking no-deal is not a feasible option.

It's a game of chicken. Mrs May will not waver unless she is deposed, and if she is deposed, the country will never forgive the Tories for creating chaos when we need unity.

It's fascinating and horribly gripping.

Any outcome that is not accepting the deal will be a terrible disaster.

I agree and it does seem like we are heading for the 'terrible disaster' you refer to."

not accepting a deal will be disaster but so will the wrong deal

Which i would they all objectting to why would anyone want to leave with no deal unless trying to sabotage so they can say we told you so when we said remain sad losers

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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This has gone wrong the conservative party under cameron didn't do their home work incase we vote leave as he was sure we vote remain

But thats conservative party for you

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By *heshire baldie  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Certainly an impressive performance at the press conference. I don't think there is any question about her sincerity in trying to bring about a successful Brexit settlement. Also I cannot see an alternative. The no-deal , which the ardent Brexiteers seem to want, would be a leap in the dark and could have catastrophic effects on trade and industry in general. A lot of people are opposing this deal but not offering any alternative. We are up against 27 other countries and they all need to approve our withdrawal which is no easy task."

I think we’re not focussed. We’re leaving, these are the terms - we really don’t give a hoot if you like them. All 27 countries; at the last count there were 6 contributors and 21 spongers

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Certainly an impressive performance at the press conference. I don't think there is any question about her sincerity in trying to bring about a successful Brexit settlement. Also I cannot see an alternative. The no-deal , which the ardent Brexiteers seem to want, would be a leap in the dark and could have catastrophic effects on trade and industry in general. A lot of people are opposing this deal but not offering any alternative. We are up against 27 other countries and they all need to approve our withdrawal which is no easy task.

I think we’re not focussed. We’re leaving, these are the terms - we really don’t give a hoot if you like them. All 27 countries; at the last count there were 6 contributors and 21 spongers"

you are totally correct there Mr Cheshire

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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Mr Gove will not get the chance to renegotiate.

People in the UK and Westminster in particular are blind to anything but their own situation.

Mrs Merkel has said today that too much ground has been given to the UK and those that think there is more to give are going to be disappointed.

The Spanish are up in arms about Mrs May's comments about the UK becoming an independent coastal state as they think they were promised access to UK waters by Mr Barnier. They are more than a little peeved that their claims to Gibraltar have been passed over.

There is a long way to go on the EU side to get this deal through and people here do not realise that.

Mr Raab's friends are already dropping his name into every conversation about future leadership contenders.

The naked envy and peevishness of Scotland about the alleged disrespecting of them and open jealousy of Northern Ireland was worthy of the playground.

The sheer doggedness and perseverance of Mrs May is to be admired. I watched her performance in the commons and she did remarkably well with little support. For a diabetic in those circumstances she was steadfast and impressive.

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By *ajor mistake  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Was this the best deal we could get? or is it that the people who were negotiating on behalf of the UK were just plain inept, or had a prior agenda, ? I think that we were miss lead by the leave campaign it was not going to be easy to leave something that we are so closely joined to, for over 40 years, and its criminal to pretend its not going to be a walk in the park, if we walk away, refuse to pay our bils, the EU, will of course want to make life hard for us, on trade, just as we would if someone owed us money and said we are not going to pay. I think the only possible way is now a second public vote, with 3 options, leave with no deal, leave with whats on the table, remain in the EU.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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I don't think a second vote has any merit whatsoever and is a complete sidestepping of responsibility by MPs.

We are a representative democracy and we elect our MPs to make decisions for us.

People vastly underestimate the complexity of the negotiations. It's remarkable we are where we are in such a short time when there was no preparation whatsoever. Not only that we as a country had a severe shortage of negotiators and foreign language speakers.

The bald truth is that as soon as the decision to leave the EU was taken the only options available were to be worse off. The reality is we can only make the best of a bad decision.

There is no doubt that the Leave campaign completely misled the public, and that the Remain campaign totally failed to bring clarity and truth to the exercise. With the benefit of hindsight we can see how complacent the Cameron government was and how they were completely unprepared for the result.

This issue had been festering for years inside the Tory party but it was the rise of the Nationalists, primarily UKIP who exploited the immigration issue, who managed to hijack the popular vote and sail us all down the anti-Europe river.

I don't understand where this remain in the EU option has come from. I voted to remain but our credibility in the institutions of Europe is shot to bits and Barnier, Junkel, Tusk and Merkel have all said they would welcome us with open arms but the rebate could not continue.

I believe the only credible way forward is to seal the withdrawal deal and then build the future relationship as quickly as possible. The fledgling political declaration is actually quite positive and I genuinely think with a slower clock ticking and some unity there's a lot to be gained.

Article 50 prevents the withdrawal agreement from defining a permanent solution so those who fear entrapment on transitionary terms are entirely wrong. There would be serious legal challenge available if that was attempted. The future relationship is the agreement everyone should be focussing on.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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Excellent and well thought out post by Moondog.

I am dead against a 2nd referendum and also against a referendum on a 'final deal'. Another you cannot have three questions in a referendum otherwise you could get a 34-33-33 result which would suit no one at all.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Yes very put there Mr _oondog and Mr nordic

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Excellent and well thought out post by Moondog.

I am dead against a 2nd referendum and also against a referendum on a 'final deal'. Another you cannot have three questions in a referendum otherwise you could get a 34-33-33 result which would suit no one at all.

"

That result on a referendum on the terms of the deal would not matter as there would still be a majority and that decision would have to be carried out. The current mess is based on implementing a result that was also a very slim majority. And Leavers who claim that a people's vote on the terms of the deal would be undemocratic should remember that Farage stated on numerous occasions that 'the battle would continue' if a decision to remain was based on a 52/48 split.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Excellent and well thought out post by Moondog.

I am dead against a 2nd referendum and also against a referendum on a 'final deal'. Another you cannot have three questions in a referendum otherwise you could get a 34-33-33 result which would suit no one at all.

That result on a referendum on the terms of the deal would not matter as there would still be a majority and that decision would have to be carried out. The current mess is based on implementing a result that was also a very slim majority. And Leavers who claim that a people's vote on the terms of the deal would be undemocratic should remember that Farage stated on numerous occasions that 'the battle would continue' if a decision to remain was based on a 52/48 split."

I voted for Brexit. Not a leap into the ocean with no safety precautions. Not to run away sticking two fingers up at other EU members.

I voted for an orderly and well disciplined exit after making arrangements for employment and commerce and finance.

Almost all those who voted Remain have said they accept the decision but want to see an organised withdrawal with measures in place to cope with the future. Remainers have consistently asked question which is surely a good thing?

It has been my fellow Brexiteers who have created the present mess with their venom and lack of answers. The only thing we hear is rhetoric and rudeness.

I fail to see how anyone no matter which way they voted would not want a vote on how the leaving process should be managed.

Mrs May is without any doubt the only politician showing concern for the nation and for the Brexit process while the others offer nothing and that nothing is right across the board from all parties.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Excellent and well thought out post by Moondog.

I am dead against a 2nd referendum and also against a referendum on a 'final deal'. Another you cannot have three questions in a referendum otherwise you could get a 34-33-33 result which would suit no one at all.

That result on a referendum on the terms of the deal would not matter as there would still be a majority and that decision would have to be carried out. The current mess is based on implementing a result that was also a very slim majority. And Leavers who claim that a people's vote on the terms of the deal would be undemocratic should remember that Farage stated on numerous occasions that 'the battle would continue' if a decision to remain was based on a 52/48 split."

Okay I'll put it another way. Hypothetical result of course.

Leave with a deal 33%

Leave with no deal 33%

Remain 34%

Highly unlikely those figures would actually happen but it would just create total chaos if something similar happened. You cannot have a three way question in a referendum. The result of the last one was indecisive enough.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 19 weeks ago

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That is one of the problems with the democratic process - a majority is a majority even it is 1 vote. It is impossible to know but the indications appear to suggest that a vote on the terms of the deal that includes the option to remain would result in a significant majority in favour of remaining. I wonder if the arch Brexiteers know that and that is why they are so fearful of a people's vote. Like Farage, they advocate democracy when it works in their favour but not otherwise.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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Cameron should have set a minimum majority for change in the referendum. The stakes were so high a simple majority was inexcusable.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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"Cameron should have set a minimum majority for change in the referendum. The stakes were so high a simple majority was inexcusable."

A nice idea but doubt it could work in reality. A majority of one single vote would have had Farage and the other rabid Brexiteers insisting they had won/been robbed and demanding 'justice'

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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The remainers areright we are doomed bot because vote but because of deal put together

All you hear is mrsmay just doesn't listen her motto my way or no way and that's another reason she is not an good leader

She's like a spoiled child I'm boss what I say goes doesn't matter what advice anyone has

Yes she is boss and has final say bup she should listen

They need 48 letter I write them all myself

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 19 weeks ago

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"The remainers areright we are doomed bot because vote but because of deal put together

All you hear is mrsmay just doesn't listen her motto my way or no way and that's another reason she is not an good leader

She's like a spoiled child I'm boss what I say goes doesn't matter what advice anyone has

Yes she is boss and has final say bup she should listen

They need 48 letter I write them all myself "

Sorry Danny but that is a dull comment. Like all the other naysayers you are just being negative. You condemn the deal but you don't offer an alternative. Discussion on a Brexit deal are not one-to-one they are one-to-twentyseven.

Furthermore you are not an MP and even if you were you wouldn't be a Conservative one, so you can't write any letters. Again more negativity because you don't come up with a viable alternative PM and how do you know that this mythical character could secure a better Brexit deal. Whatever a better Brexit deal is

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By *115   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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I only feel sorry about Brexit that the UK won't participate in changing this ''Tower of Babel'' in Brussel.

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By *annyboy87  (M) 19 weeks ago

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"The remainers areright we are doomed bot because vote but because of deal put together

All you hear is mrsmay just doesn't listen her motto my way or no way and that's another reason she is not an good leader

She's like a spoiled child I'm boss what I say goes doesn't matter what advice anyone has

Yes she is boss and has final say bup she should listen

They need 48 letter I write them all myself

Sorry Danny but that is a dull comment. Like all the other naysayers you are just being negative. You condemn the deal but you don't offer an alternative. Discussion on a Brexit deal are not one-to-one they are one-to-twentyseven.

Furthermore you are not an MP and even if you were you wouldn't be a Conservative one, so you can't write any letters. Again more negativity because you don't come up with a viable alternative PM and how do you know that this mythical character could secure a better Brexit deal. Whatever a better Brexit deal is"

well I was negative about deal yes but with what is being reported every where people resigning one after other that's not a very good sign

And these people have studied the deal more than anyone in public, they are obviously not happy with it so that could mean it's not a good deal afterall

Even if she says so she is more stubborn than anything

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By *115   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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"I only feel sorry about Brexit that the UK won't participate in changing this ''Tower of Babel'' in Brussel. "

EU turned far toooo far to the left. If next election next year won't change that then it can be more ''brexits''.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCz5k8PXm6k

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 19 weeks ago

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Mrs May has got the best deal out of the EU that anyone could have. That said, it’s rubbish and doesn’t stand a chance of getting through the commons.

The EU negotiators think they have a very strong hand and can force a bad deal on the UK, and the 27 have been remarkably united up to this point. As the deadline approaches and a no deal Brexit looks more likely, you will see some of the national governments lose their nerve and start to press the EU for concessions to be made. A no deal scenario might be bad for the U.K. but it will severely affect other countries in the EU as well.

If there is no deal the EU will have to spend the next few years renegotiating quotas as without access to U.K. waters half the Spanish fishing fleet will have to be laid off never mind the wine lake and butter mountain that will reappear as we source cheaper alternatives from around the world.

The Eurocrats determination that we must take an economic hit to dissuade others from leaving could back fire as the most vulnerable jobs are done by EU immigrants who would most likely head back over the channel in search of new employment, swelling the unemployment figures in countries where this is already a problem, governments have fallen over rising unemployment figures as those politicians know only too well. Alternatively they head for Germany where increased immigration has led to a rise in the far right AFD and could see the CDU voted out of office at the next election.

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas politicians across Europe will be pressing for a deal to be done before the downturn in their economies sees them voted out of office.

All Mrs May has to do is hold her nerve, as she goes through the process of putting this deal to the House the clock counts down the pressure will increase on both sides of the channel for a renegotiation, the longer she can hold her nerve the better the deal we will get.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 19 weeks ago

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I think you are right Mr GYbear

Barnier has already had to intervene with the ambassadors to defend what is seen as his deal from the EU side

People here in the UK have no sense of the outrage from the French and Spanish over just the loss of fishing rights.

Two more of the 27 have come out and said no more can be given away.

They are already focussing on the European elections and their own futures.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 18 weeks ago

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"Mrs May has got the best deal out of the EU that anyone could have. That said, it’s rubbish and doesn’t stand a chance of getting through the commons.

The EU negotiators think they have a very strong hand and can force a bad deal on the UK, and the 27 have been remarkably united up to this point. As the deadline approaches and a no deal Brexit looks more likely, you will see some of the national governments lose their nerve and start to press the EU for concessions to be made. A no deal scenario might be bad for the U.K. but it will severely affect other countries in the EU as well.

If there is no deal the EU will have to spend the next few years renegotiating quotas as without access to U.K. waters half the Spanish fishing fleet will have to be laid off never mind the wine lake and butter mountain that will reappear as we source cheaper alternatives from around the world.

The Eurocrats determination that we must take an economic hit to dissuade others from leaving could back fire as the most vulnerable jobs are done by EU immigrants who would most likely head back over the channel in search of new employment, swelling the unemployment figures in countries where this is already a problem, governments have fallen over rising unemployment figures as those politicians know only too well. Alternatively they head for Germany where increased immigration has led to a rise in the far right AFD and could see the CDU voted out of office at the next election.

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas politicians across Europe will be pressing for a deal to be done before the downturn in their economies sees them voted out of office.

All Mrs May has to do is hold her nerve, as she goes through the process of putting this deal to the House the clock counts down the pressure will increase on both sides of the channel for a renegotiation, the longer she can hold her nerve the better the deal we will get.

"

As soon as we won the vote to leave the EU it was inevitable that the actions from other members would be negative. What on earth did anyone expect?

I haven't see any politician fighting our corner harder than Mrs May who has fought tooth and nail for the best possible deal. Only a complete imbecile would want to walk away with no deal which would do irreparable harm to our country and harm we might never recover from.

Things have moved forward much too quickly and so much could have been argued before we had implemented the out button.

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By *aravaggio  (M) 18 weeks ago

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"Mrs May has got the best deal out of the EU that anyone could have. That said, it’s rubbish and doesn’t stand a chance of getting through the commons.

The EU negotiators think they have a very strong hand and can force a bad deal on the UK, and the 27 have been remarkably united up to this point. As the deadline approaches and a no deal Brexit looks more likely, you will see some of the national governments lose their nerve and start to press the EU for concessions to be made. A no deal scenario might be bad for the U.K. but it will severely affect other countries in the EU as well.

If there is no deal the EU will have to spend the next few years renegotiating quotas as without access to U.K. waters half the Spanish fishing fleet will have to be laid off never mind the wine lake and butter mountain that will reappear as we source cheaper alternatives from around the world.

The Eurocrats determination that we must take an economic hit to dissuade others from leaving could back fire as the most vulnerable jobs are done by EU immigrants who would most likely head back over the channel in search of new employment, swelling the unemployment figures in countries where this is already a problem, governments have fallen over rising unemployment figures as those politicians know only too well. Alternatively they head for Germany where increased immigration has led to a rise in the far right AFD and could see the CDU voted out of office at the next election.

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas politicians across Europe will be pressing for a deal to be done before the downturn in their economies sees them voted out of office.

All Mrs May has to do is hold her nerve, as she goes through the process of putting this deal to the House the clock counts down the pressure will increase on both sides of the channel for a renegotiation, the longer she can hold her nerve the better the deal we will get.

As soon as we won the vote to leave the EU it was inevitable that the actions from other members would be negative. What on earth did anyone expect?

I haven't see any politician fighting our corner harder than Mrs May who has fought tooth and nail for the best possible deal. Only a complete imbecile would want to walk away with no deal which would do irreparable harm to our country and harm we might never recover from.

Things have moved forward much too quickly and so much could have been argued before we had implemented the out button. "

I am a complete imbecile. In fact, if we walked away without a deal with the EU, I'd be an ecstatic imbecile. Anything but a clean break is akin to being in the EU without what few advantages there were.

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By *ajor mistake  (M) 18 weeks ago

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Since when do you leave a club, yet expect the same benefits as being in it? come on, engage your grey matter!! you can not do it, and anyone that tells you you can is lying, its not in the EU'S advantage to off you a good deal, because if they do it undermines the rest of the club, the whole Brexit saga has been based on incomplete information, and half truths and complete lies, a bunch of city spivs, want to bend you over and fuck you, and want you to pay them for it, they say, its going to be the best, but you realise its not, if anything its an anti climax, but they got what they want, or needed,

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