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By *ackey  (M) 28 weeks ago

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Let me get this straight the e.u.have never lied.unbelieveable.hands up all those who believe that.

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By *avid93111  (M) 27 weeks ago

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The eu is a criminal organisation, never had books audited, not democratic, as no one are elected, snouts in the trough the lot of them , the main reason they don’t want us to leave is the enormous amount of money we have to give to the crooks, the members of eu who are net receivers , have much better roads ,and infra structure ,whilst not contributing one penny ,Or one toytown money, sooner we are free from them the better. We will be out as soon as we get a PM who is a leaver , hopefully quite soon.

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By *hatterstone  (M) 27 weeks ago

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M E P BALLOT done my postal vote NO THANK YOUR WASTING OUR TIME AND MONEY.

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By *ldick72   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The eu is a criminal organisation, never had books audited, not democratic, as no one are elected, snouts in the trough the lot of them , the main reason they don’t want us to leave is the enormous amount of money we have to give to the crooks, the members of eu who are net receivers , have much better roads ,and infra structure ,whilst not contributing one penny ,Or one toytown money, sooner we are free from them the better. We will be out as soon as we get a PM who is a leaver , hopefully quite soon. "

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By *ldick72   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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I don't usually get into political thingd on here but I would just like to say that I strongly agree with this post, thank you David

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*oredEric By *oredEric  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The eu is a criminal organisation, never had books audited, not democratic, as no one are elected, snouts in the trough the lot of them , the main reason they don’t want us to leave is the enormous amount of money we have to give to the crooks, the members of eu who are net receivers , have much better roads ,and infra structure ,whilst not contributing one penny ,Or one toytown money, sooner we are free from them the better. We will be out as soon as we get a PM who is a leaver , hopefully quite soon. "

.

...and now you know why MPs won't ever vote to leave as we have he people decided. It's not in their interests. It's an easy job to get your partner elected to an MEP role, get your kifds into nice well paid EU roles, somewhere to go after parliament not be EU job, get on and ride the gravy train. Some are worse offenders than offers.

Politics and democracy are in effect a sham to stop the poor from rising up to redistribute wealth. Everyone chooses to play by the rules and remain poor, taxed until the pups squeak, and bitch about things without doing anything about it. That's broken down in America where the rich have decided they'll take the lot now and fuck the people, it won't surprise me if they try it here.

They're already after those on benefits, everybody treated as a fraudster it potential fraudster, demonised in the media, creating and sowing division in society is how these people work. Look into your own heart, how do you feel about benefit claimants, not the 4.2% of actual fraudulent claims, but the 95.8% of people, who through no fault of their own need help? Bet this paragraph stimulates some angry replies, the 4.2% I got from the NAO and a Guardian report before you leap down my throat.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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The thing about unaudited accounts is an urban myth. As for the money we contribute, have a look around you local area and see how many projects have been made possible thanks to EU funding. The Brexshit Party had their stall out here yesterday and they were full of nonsense and very uninformed - they had no idea of the things in the local area that were done with EU money, and had no policies on important matters like the economy, education and health. They made a very poor impression but many people will be swayed by their guff and hot air.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The eu is a criminal organisation, never had books audited, not democratic, as no one are elected, snouts in the trough the lot of them , the main reason they don’t want us to leave is the enormous amount of money we have to give to the crooks, the members of eu who are net receivers , have much better roads ,and infra structure ,whilst not contributing one penny ,Or one toytown money, sooner we are free from them the better. We will be out as soon as we get a PM who is a leaver , hopefully quite soon. .

...and now you know why MPs won't ever vote to leave as we have he people decided. It's not in their interests. It's an easy job to get your partner elected to an MEP role, get your kifds into nice well paid EU roles, somewhere to go after parliament not be EU job, get on and ride the gravy train. Some are worse offenders than offers.

Politics and democracy are in effect a sham to stop the poor from rising up to redistribute wealth. Everyone chooses to play by the rules and remain poor, taxed until the pups squeak, and bitch about things without doing anything about it. That's broken down in America where the rich have decided they'll take the lot now and fuck the people, it won't surprise me if they try it here.

They're already after those on benefits, everybody treated as a fraudster it potential fraudster, demonised in the media, creating and sowing division in society is how these people work. Look into your own heart, how do you feel about benefit claimants, not the 4.2% of actual fraudulent claims, but the 95.8% of people, who through no fault of their own need help? Bet this paragraph stimulates some angry replies, the 4.2% I got from the NAO and a Guardian report before you leap down my throat."

I agree. A well stated argument but you are right that it will draw an angry response from those who would rather not let reason and fact get in the way of prejudice. I admire you for putting your head above the parapet knowing you will be shot down

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*usansilkysubcd By *usansilkysubcd  (TV/TS/CD) 27 weeks ago

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"The thing about unaudited accounts is an urban myth. As for the money we contribute, have a look around you local area and see how many projects have been made possible thanks to EU funding. The Brexshit Party had their stall out here yesterday and they were full of nonsense and very uninformed - they had no idea of the things in the local area that were done with EU money, and had no policies on important matters like the economy, education and health. They made a very poor impression but many people will be swayed by their guff and hot air."

I can’t think of anything in my area done with EU money. Apart from the Nottingham tram which loses about £1million a week because hardly anyone uses it.

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By *avid93111  (M) 27 weeks ago

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Left wing nonsense, the poor eh, in this time of full employment , they still expect to live on the state, never contributing anything, just grab benefits, Some of the so called poor come to our local shop, most have a dog, smoke, and buy scratch cards, two or three times a week, all claimants. Are these the people you want to help? Some are second generation workless, and have never worked.

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By *ustercrab  (M) 27 weeks ago

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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink ??

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By *avid93111  (M) 27 weeks ago

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You can Lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead

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*oredEric By *oredEric  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Left wing nonsense, the poor eh, in this time of full employment , they still expect to live on the state, never contributing anything, just grab benefits, Some of the so called poor come to our local shop, most have a dog, smoke, and buy scratch cards, two or three times a week, all claimants. Are these the people you want to help? Some are second generation workless, and have never worked."

Wow! Was this a poor attempt at humour, or are you actually that wilfully pig fucking ignorant?

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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Before we degenerate into the usual insults I think with this, like most things, you cannot generalise. I'm surprised that the figure for fraudulent benefit claims is so low. Or is it a case that a lot have not been caught as we all seem to know some of the offenders. However the vast majority claiming benefits do so out of no fault of their own.

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By *avid93111  (M) 27 weeks ago

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BoDerick, how would you know how ignorant a pig is, Mirror possibly?

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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Lets break things down so they're really simple regarding EU monies and where it's spent.

Lets work on £100, eh? We give this £100 to Fritz, who gives us back £80 in bits and pieces, so we're actually paying out £20. With me so far? If we leave the EU, we can obviously afford to pay everyone their bits and pieces and still have £20 left over to spend on more bits and pieces. The EU don't want us to leave because they badly want our £20. They also badly want our spending power, as well. When we leave, they can still have SOME of our spending power, but they can't have it all, because we can spend more effectively on a lot of things, by spending outside the EU. Basically, they want our money both directly and indirectly ……… they also want our armed forces, our police force, our security services, and of course, our labour force for when they start to control direct taxation. Our leaving makes a bloody big hole in their plans ….. my heart bleeds for them ..

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The thing about unaudited accounts is an urban myth. As for the money we contribute, have a look around you local area and see how many projects have been made possible thanks to EU funding. The Brexshit Party had their stall out here yesterday and they were full of nonsense and very uninformed - they had no idea of the things in the local area that were done with EU money, and had no policies on important matters like the economy, education and health. They made a very poor impression but many people will be swayed by their guff and hot air."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24819085

This is the bbc so you will believe it. It’s not a myth it is a fact, you should see what some of the eurosceptic journalists say.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/home_en

How about the EU anti fraud.

€6.6 billion recommended for recovery, 2300 recommendations for action.

Is this enough to convince you of criminality?

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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And our own home bred eu mps were all totally innocent of any crimnal actions . Its all them foreigners. And Westminster mps expenses never happened. Course not ,they are british. And even if they did ( land of hope and glory getting louder) it was british .

Good luck to Nigel and his E.U pension.

And statistics . Big raspberry noise.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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I believe it is a complete myth that there is any proven criminality within the EU although I'm sure there are the same dodgy occurrences we get in our national politics too. There is also a lot of wastage but this happens in every big organisation as proven by the NHS in our own countyry.

I find Farage quite obnoxious and self serving. He does make a brilliant speech but I'm not sure he even writes his own speeches because when he being interviewed he struggles to answer the simplest of question.

I want to leave the EU as I believe there will be long term gains but I'm glad we have a government brave enough to keep fighting for our interests and not just roll over and jump ship.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"I believe it is a complete myth that there is any proven criminality within the EU although I'm sure there are the same dodgy occurrences we get in our national politics too. There is also a lot of wastage but this happens in every big organisation as proven by the NHS in our own countyry.

I find Farage quite obnoxious and self serving. He does make a brilliant speech but I'm not sure he even writes his own speeches because when he being interviewed he struggles to answer the simplest of question.

I want to leave the EU as I believe there will be long term gains but I'm glad we have a government brave enough to keep fighting for our interests and not just roll over and jump ship."

I've never heard Farage struggle with any questions. Indeed, he answers them in a forthright fashion. If you are referring to Marr's questioning, well, that was as blatant a piece of slurring without proof that I've ever heard. Marr is all about Marr, and when he gets it back he's like a kid in the playground, he sulks. Whilst I'm on about Marr, here's a tip, never read any of his books, irrespective of the subject, they're garbage. I've ploughed through a few of them because the subject he alluded to in the title interested me. I was more coherent when I was 12, than he is now.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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I still think Farage is carefully stage-managed. A few times he has 'beat about the bush' on some of his famous 'man of the people' emergences from a pub. Too much real ale perhaps? I'm not questioning his cleverness and ability but he is not quite so wonderful as his adoring public make out. As for yesterday's Andrew Marr show well it was pure comedy and neither Farage or Marr came out of it very well.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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We will beg to differ on that TV show, but ref him being stage managed …… I don't think he is, otherwise you would have come across his back-up team by now. I actually would go the other way, and say that he is so convincing because he DOESN'T have a speech writer etc., its all him.

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By *orum reader  (M) 27 weeks ago

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Mr Farage got very upset yesterday when Mr Marr asked about his previous position's prior to the referendum, which is the norm for politician's particularly those that have changed their opinion on weather a 2nd referendum should take place ( amongst other things)

If Theresa May were to turn up on Sunday's Marr show saying she has now decided that her "deal" is a load of rubbish we would all expect Mr Marr to ask why

And after the previous campaign Mr Farage was involved with was prosecuted over the funding of that campaign

You would expect questions to be asked about the current campaign funding

I thought the questions at the beginning were perfectly acceptable but the later question just became a bit silly as were Mr Farage's answers

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"We will beg to differ on that TV show, but ref him being stage managed …… I don't think he is, otherwise you would have come across his back-up team by now. I actually would go the other way, and say that he is so convincing because he DOESN'T have a speech writer etc., its all him."

I agree, Foxy's strength has always been in oration - everything else is suspect, but not his intelligence or ability to speak.

Having been said, once you pull him off his favourite subjects, he has lost it.

Not like our Mr C, who has an answer to anything and everything.

repect, not snide)

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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No no no. On occasion, I offer an alternative viewpoint for discussion, especially when the usual suspects come out with a load of tripe that cannot either be true, or worse still, justified ….

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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The fact is, Nigel Farage IS a one trick pony, and he probably wouldn't dispute that, so why do people try to bring up the fact that he doesn't have a policy on this or an answer for that? He's an agent for change, and a damned good one. It really amuses me when people credit uncle Tom Cobley and all for having achieved such a result from the referendum. If it wasn't for Farage, we wouldn't have had a referendum in the first place, he managed to scare Cameron et al into giving us one. Then to cap it all, in most people's eyes, Farage was the voice of "Leave", irrespective of how many organisations tried to jump on the bandwagon. As others have said, he's a clever guy with a gift for oration, and also, a gift for sensing the public mood ……… its a shame our main line politicians aren't half as gifted.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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Going back to the Marr/Farage spat/entertainment did I not hear Mr Farage say he was not opposed to another referendum? It was a did difficult to follow at times. Most Brexiteers oppose a 2nd referendum in case it does not give them the result they want this time.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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From a Brexiteer point of view there is nothing to be gained from a second referendum, the only reason for doing it is the “establishment “ saying to the electorate you got the answer wrong.

Some Brexiteers would like another referendum because they think they would get a larger majority and then there would be no more excuses not to implement the decision.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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This Brexiteer would not particularly like another referendum but like many (maybe most) Brexiteers he believes a second referendum would be preferable to jumping ship with no plans to survive.

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By *avid93111  (M) 27 weeks ago

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A very good point, I think most of the people who want a second referendum, believe the result would be different, What a shock if it produced a even bigger majority to Leave. What next best of three? That’s not democracy.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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A second referendum would be fine …. DEPENDING ON THE WORDING OF THE QUESTIONS. Only two options, Leave the EU? or Remain in the EU? I'd be happy with that, because I firmly believe that Leave would walk it. I've talked to so many previous remainers who now want to get out, that there just has to be a massive groundswell of support for leaving. The MPs have shot themselves in the foot, as a reasonable percentage of any Leave vote will have been caused by people's anger at the way the previous decision was handled. So, lets have a second referendum, but it HAS to be a simple in or out vote.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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I wouldn't like to predict the outcome of a 2nd referendum. I know quite a few remainers who would now vote to leave. Six months ago I was wavering and thinking I might vote remain. Now I look at that evil cabal known as the EU Commission and I am more adamant than ever to leave. Trouble is the demographics have changed. A lot of older people, who probably voted Leave, have died and a lot of youngsters, who are more inclined to be conned into voting remain, are now on the electoral roll.. A lot can change in 3 years.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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One of my biggest disappointments regading the whole Brexit fiasco is the constant drip, drip of rhetoric and false information and very little of genuine substance.

Of course we are suspicious and worried about the control a faceless behomoth such as the EU presents. However I don't believe it is such a waste of money as it does give us a lot of advantages.

It is a myth that they control out laws or that they force human rights upon us.

It is a complete nonsense that leaving will have an effect on the number of undesirable immigrants coming into the UK as we already control our own borders. It will, of course, affect the number of genuine workers/families who come here to settle.

I didnt vote leave because I hate the EU. Ivoted leave because if we were to withdraw on a relatively friendly basis and with business plans ready to be implemented for outr future it will be to our advantage in the long term - perhaps a decade or so. Either way it wont make much difference to the present generation but it will make a difference to the following generations.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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err.... no. People die, but old people still exist, and indeed, are getting more numerous. Young people grow up! ..

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"It is a myth that they control out laws or that they force human rights upon us.

It is a complete nonsense that leaving will have an effect on the number of undesirable immigrants coming into the UK as we already control our own borders. It will, of course, affect the number of genuine workers/families who come here to settle.

"

I find the above paragraph very disturbing.

Law and Human Rights …….. explain why we are not subject to EU rules.

Control of borders ….. explain how we are already in control of our borders.

Ref the genuine workers wish to settle. there would be nothing to stop anyone from applying for settlement rights, but surely, there is nothing wrong with us having the ability to be selective about such an issue? In fact, I think it's a prime requisite for ANY country to be able to say who lives within its borders and who doesn't.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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Successive government in this country seem to have happily rolled over and embraced EU rules and regulations whereas other countries seem to have said 'Okay then' but promptly forgotten them.

On the subject of immigration I have found most EU citizens have come here to work, often do menial jobs that Brits wont do, and integrate quite well. Most of the 'undesirable' immigrants come from outside the EU.

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By *reatedbear   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Going back to the Marr/Farage spat/entertainment did I not hear Mr Farage say he was not opposed to another referendum? It was a did difficult to follow at times. Most Brexiteers oppose a 2nd referendum in case it does not give them the result they want this time."

Oh yes, Farage would have to see he agreed to a second referendum because he stood on Parliament Green before the referendum and said that if the UK voted to remain, he would campaign for a second referendum and would keep campaigning until he got one and if the UK voted to remain again, he would campaign for another until we left. So, in reply to the poster who said earlier would it be the best of 3, then Farage would be wanting to go further than that except that it wouldn't happen because people would become tired of him and view him as a sore loser (which is exactly what he is). I, incidentally, voted remain but I respect the result and think a second ref is wrong. We voted to LEAVE and that is what we must do. The only reason to justify a 2nd ref is that the first was not binding (the LibDem's reason).

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Going back to the Marr/Farage spat/entertainment did I not hear Mr Farage say he was not opposed to another referendum? It was a did difficult to follow at times. Most Brexiteers oppose a 2nd referendum in case it does not give them the result they want this time.

Oh yes, Farage would have to see he agreed to a second referendum because he stood on Parliament Green before the referendum and said that if the UK voted to remain, he would campaign for a second referendum and would keep campaigning until he got one and if the UK voted to remain again, he would campaign for another until we left. So, in reply to the poster who said earlier would it be the best of 3, then Farage would be wanting to go further than that except that it wouldn't happen because people would become tired of him and view him as a sore loser (which is exactly what he is). I, incidentally, voted remain but I respect the result and think a second ref is wrong. We voted to LEAVE and that is what we must do. The only reason to justify a 2nd ref is that the first was not binding (the LibDem's reason)."

You are quite right - Farage said that on more than one occasion. And the referendum was indeed 'advisory', not binding.

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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I voted remain but accepted the result.

What I don't accept is this appalling turmoil we are in where every other important policy has been sidelined and we've had three years of death by Brexit.

I am now coming to the view that nothing will happen until October at the earliest when it'll probably be another extension.

It's time for another referendum where the choices are get out and get out fast, or stay in and attempt reform.

We haven't even started negotiating the trade deal yet!

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"Going back to the Marr/Farage spat/entertainment did I not hear Mr Farage say he was not opposed to another referendum? It was a did difficult to follow at times. Most Brexiteers oppose a 2nd referendum in case it does not give them the result they want this time.

Oh yes, Farage would have to see he agreed to a second referendum because he stood on Parliament Green before the referendum and said that if the UK voted to remain, he would campaign for a second referendum and would keep campaigning until he got one and if the UK voted to remain again, he would campaign for another until we left. So, in reply to the poster who said earlier would it be the best of 3, then Farage would be wanting to go further than that except that it wouldn't happen because people would become tired of him and view him as a sore loser (which is exactly what he is). I, incidentally, voted remain but I respect the result and think a second ref is wrong. We voted to LEAVE and that is what we must do. The only reason to justify a 2nd ref is that the first was not binding (the LibDem's reason)."

Sore loser???? …. what has he lost???

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"You are quite right - Farage said that on more than one occasion. And the referendum was indeed 'advisory', not binding."

That is utter bollocks …. …. Advisory??? Where do you get that idea from??

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"I voted remain but accepted the result.

What I don't accept is this appalling turmoil we are in where every other important policy has been sidelined and we've had three years of death by Brexit.

I am now coming to the view that nothing will happen until October at the earliest when it'll probably be another extension.

It's time for another referendum where the choices are get out and get out fast, or stay in and attempt reform.

We haven't even started negotiating the trade deal yet!"

The EU have made it as difficult as possible because they need our money. Couple that with MPs seeing a future gravy train disappearing down the tracks, and you have the reasons why its chaos. However, when we eventually leave, you just watch the speed with which the EU will be wanting to do trade deals with us. They need our spending power very badly in order to prop up their failing economy.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"You are quite right - Farage said that on more than one occasion. And the referendum was indeed 'advisory', not binding.

That is utter bollocks …. …. Advisory??? Where do you get that idea from??"

The result was advisory. That has never been disputed. The government have said they will stand by it which is why they are trying so hard to get a deal but it was only advisory.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"It is a myth that they control out laws or that they force human rights upon us.

It is a complete nonsense that leaving will have an effect on the number of undesirable immigrants coming into the UK as we already control our own borders. It will, of course, affect the number of genuine workers/families who come here to settle.

I find the above paragraph very disturbing.

Law and Human Rights …….. explain why we are not subject to EU rules.

Control of borders ….. explain how we are already in control of our borders.

Ref the genuine workers wish to settle. there would be nothing to stop anyone from applying for settlement rights, but surely, there is nothing wrong with us having the ability to be selective about such an issue? In fact, I think it's a prime requisite for ANY country to be able to say who lives within its borders and who doesn't."

The laws which we have negotiated alongside others in the EU were not thrust upon us. I would be interested to know which laws you think we were forc ed to have.

The human rights have nothing to do with the EU and will remain the same when we leave.

We have full control of our own borders. Those who disagree with our governments decisions might like to blame the EU but that is not factual.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"You are quite right - Farage said that on more than one occasion. And the referendum was indeed 'advisory', not binding.

That is utter bollocks …. …. Advisory??? Where do you get that idea from??"

It was advisory because it was not legally binding. It is up to parliament to abide by it which they have so far failed to do thanks to the boneheaded extreme Brexiteers on the government back-benches, the DUP and the bloody-minded opposition parties.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"You are quite right - Farage said that on more than one occasion. And the referendum was indeed 'advisory', not binding.

That is utter bollocks …. …. Advisory??? Where do you get that idea from??

It was advisory because it was not legally binding. It is up to parliament to abide by it which they have so far failed to do thanks to the boneheaded extreme Brexiteers on the government back-benches, the DUP and the bloody-minded opposition parties. "

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"It is a myth that they control out laws or that they force human rights upon us.

It is a complete nonsense that leaving will have an effect on the number of undesirable immigrants coming into the UK as we already control our own borders. It will, of course, affect the number of genuine workers/families who come here to settle.

I find the above paragraph very disturbing.

Law and Human Rights …….. explain why we are not subject to EU rules.

Control of borders ….. explain how we are already in control of our borders.

Ref the genuine workers wish to settle. there would be nothing to stop anyone from applying for settlement rights, but surely, there is nothing wrong with us having the ability to be selective about such an issue? In fact, I think it's a prime requisite for ANY country to be able to say who lives within its borders and who doesn't.

The laws which we have negotiated alongside others in the EU were not thrust upon us. I would be interested to know which laws you think we were forc ed to have.

The human rights have nothing to do with the EU and will remain the same when we leave.

We have full control of our own borders. Those who disagree with our governments decisions might like to blame the EU but that is not factual. "

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"It is a myth that they control out laws or that they force human rights upon us.

It is a complete nonsense that leaving will have an effect on the number of undesirable immigrants coming into the UK as we already control our own borders. It will, of course, affect the number of genuine workers/families who come here to settle.

I find the above paragraph very disturbing.

Law and Human Rights …….. explain why we are not subject to EU rules.

Control of borders ….. explain how we are already in control of our borders.

Ref the genuine workers wish to settle. there would be nothing to stop anyone from applying for settlement rights, but surely, there is nothing wrong with us having the ability to be selective about such an issue? In fact, I think it's a prime requisite for ANY country to be able to say who lives within its borders and who doesn't.

The laws which we have negotiated alongside others in the EU were not thrust upon us. I would be interested to know which laws you think we were forc ed to have.

The human rights have nothing to do with the EU and will remain the same when we leave.

We have full control of our own borders. Those who disagree with our governments decisions might like to blame the EU but that is not factual. "

Whether EU rulings are thrust upon us or not, if any EU law is involved in dispute, the ECJ is the higher court. Most contracts made within UK are made under EU rules therefore contract law, which covers just about every facet of business is under the control of the ECJ. The Law of Tort, is ever increasingly being decided by the ECJ. The guarantees you have with your purchased goods, all come within the rulings of the ECJ …. just let me know if you want anymore examples.

The ECHR is everything to do with the EU as far as the UK is concerned. We are only signed up to it because we are a member of the EU, its a stipulation of membership. Both main parties have stated that once we are out of the EU, a UK Bill of Rights will be written that is specific to our needs.

You still haven't explained how we are in control of our borders.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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We have a Parliamentary Democracy so any referenda are only advisory but before the EU referendum both Labour and Conservative parties said they would abide by the result.

EU legislation supersedes U.K. legislation and is adjudicated by the ECJ which supersedes the U.K. Supreme Court.

We have control of our external border outside the EU and can decide who to allow in from outside but as part of the EU all EU citizens have the right to move here and there is nothing we can do to stop them. There is also nothing to stop people from outside the EU buying a passport from another EU country such as Malta (there was a recent scandal of this happening) or obtaining one legally and then coming to the U.K. At best this can be considered partial control but in reality it means immigration is outside our authority.

There are dissenting voices in Greece and Italy that say a way out of the immigration crisis is to give them passports so they can move to the European country of their choice especially as many EU countries have refused the idea of refugee quotas.

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By *reatedbear   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Going back to the Marr/Farage spat/entertainment did I not hear Mr Farage say he was not opposed to another referendum? It was a did difficult to follow at times. Most Brexiteers oppose a 2nd referendum in case it does not give them the result they want this time.

Oh yes, Farage would have to see he agreed to a second referendum because he stood on Parliament Green before the referendum and said that if the UK voted to remain, he would campaign for a second referendum and would keep campaigning until he got one and if the UK voted to remain again, he would campaign for another until we left. So, in reply to the poster who said earlier would it be the best of 3, then Farage would be wanting to go further than that except that it wouldn't happen because people would become tired of him and view him as a sore loser (which is exactly what he is). I, incidentally, voted remain but I respect the result and think a second ref is wrong. We voted to LEAVE and that is what we must do. The only reason to justify a 2nd ref is that the first was not binding (the LibDem's reason).

Sore loser???? …. what has he lost???"

Well, Christ knows how many by-elections for a start off. Failure after failure to become an MP. Every sodding election he stood in was always corrupt and he'd "been picked on" and "mocked" and there were "things and plots going on to stop him winning" Yadda fuckin yadda! If that was the case, why didn't he turn his back on it all...unless he wanted to be a no good politician like the others but he's already done that by doing nothing at the EU whilst taking his ridiculous inflated salary. The reality was that voters saw through him and realised that his patriotism was utter rubblish. Hiring a team of Rumanian men to shift readiators at his offices, hiring a Lithuanian housekeeper and hiring an Estonian gardener. Brit jobs for Brit people Nigel? Fucking hypocrite.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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For those interested the Lisbon Treaty of 2008 brought in qualified majority voting (QMV) for everything except foreign and taxation policy in member states. The U.K. and Ireland have an additional opt out for justice and home affairs. There is now no power of veto.

QMV requires 55% of countries representing 65% of the EU population to pass legislation so even if the U.K. opposes something it has to implement it, so yes the EU does force laws on us.

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By *reatedbear   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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That's right GY bear. People moving from here to other countries like Spain and refusing to integrate, learn the language, setting up their own little 'In-ger-lund' enclaves whilst sticking 2 fingers up to anyone who doesn't fit their want.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The reality was that voters saw through him and realised that his patriotism was utter rubblish. Hiring a team of Rumanian men to shift readiators at his offices, hiring a Lithuanian housekeeper and hiring an Estonian gardener. Brit jobs for Brit people Nigel? Fucking hypocrite."

If Nigel had stated he would only have employed Brits he would be breaking the law and would rightly be accused of racism he has instead chosen the best people for the job regardless of race, as he should.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Going back to the Marr/Farage spat/entertainment did I not hear Mr Farage say he was not opposed to another referendum? It was a did difficult to follow at times. Most Brexiteers oppose a 2nd referendum in case it does not give them the result they want this time.

Oh yes, Farage would have to see he agreed to a second referendum because he stood on Parliament Green before the referendum and said that if the UK voted to remain, he would campaign for a second referendum and would keep campaigning until he got one and if the UK voted to remain again, he would campaign for another until we left. So, in reply to the poster who said earlier would it be the best of 3, then Farage would be wanting to go further than that except that it wouldn't happen because people would become tired of him and view him as a sore loser (which is exactly what he is). I, incidentally, voted remain but I respect the result and think a second ref is wrong. We voted to LEAVE and that is what we must do. The only reason to justify a 2nd ref is that the first was not binding (the LibDem's reason).

Sore loser???? …. what has he lost???

Well, Christ knows how many by-elections for a start off. Failure after failure to become an MP. Every sodding election he stood in was always corrupt and he'd "been picked on" and "mocked" and there were "things and plots going on to stop him winning" Yadda fuckin yadda! If that was the case, why didn't he turn his back on it all...unless he wanted to be a no good politician like the others but he's already done that by doing nothing at the EU whilst taking his ridiculous inflated salary. The reality was that voters saw through him and realised that his patriotism was utter rubblish. Hiring a team of Rumanian men to shift readiators at his offices, hiring a Lithuanian housekeeper and hiring an Estonian gardener. Brit jobs for Brit people Nigel? Fucking hypocrite."

You forgot the French partner, children registered as German and the quote that if Brexit goes wrong he will move abroad! Does he care one bit about the Brits he is leading astray who don't have the same options and privileges? No, he will scarper and live very nicely on his large EP pension. The man is a twat.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"That's right GY bear. People moving from here to other countries like Spain and refusing to integrate, learn the language, setting up their own little 'In-ger-lund' enclaves whilst sticking 2 fingers up to anyone who doesn't fit their want."

Personally I think what happens in Spain is a matter for the Spanish people and Spanish government and if this influx of investment and expenditure is good for the Spanish economy then that is for them to decide.

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By *reatedbear   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The reality was that voters saw through him and realised that his patriotism was utter rubblish. Hiring a team of Rumanian men to shift readiators at his offices, hiring a Lithuanian housekeeper and hiring an Estonian gardener. Brit jobs for Brit people Nigel? Fucking hypocrite.

If Nigel had stated he would only have employed Brits he would be breaking the law and would rightly be accused of racism he has instead chosen the best people for the job regardless of race, as he should."

Yes, because he obviously thought I know I said British kobs for British people but they aren't any good at the jobs so fuck them, I'll give the work to foreign people, therefore British jobs for foreign people. Something he has said is wrong for God knows how long. He didn't have to advertise for Brit people...he could have employed Brit people like he said should happen...but he didn't. Like I said, he's a fucking hypocrite.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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Politics …. citizenship, patriotism, and duty to country...… you don't have to be a Greek scholar to understand that, just a passing knowledge of the works of the late Sir Terry Pratchett will instil that nugget of information within you.

However, to understand "politics", you have to have an open mind. Without such, it just doesn't work, and lo' .. what do we find nowadays? Politics not working.

So many people AND politicians have closed minds. They adopt a stance based on tribal custom, with no thought to what is actually needed at any moment in time, and they adopt a stance that is directly opposed to what they perceive as an attempt to belittle their position in the social structure.

What is becoming ever increasingly clear, is that globalisation is ruining an ability to govern a country. It is therefore follows that globalisation severely affects the citizens of a country. From there, it is only a short step to find that patriotism disappears, replaced by a global multiculturalism that cannot peacefully exist ….. and there you have it, the three tenets of politics destroyed.

Countries need a period of introspection, self determination, a releasing of the bonds that constitute globalisation. Capitalism is fine, as long as its governed in size. The tail must cease to wag the dog. Countries also need a period whereby they can recover their own self esteem, their own culture, their pride. they need to rediscover how to stand on their own two feet ………………..Ooops!! I'm starting to sound like I may be asking people to look at what Nigel Farage is doing, and asking them, "Isn't it just common sense???????"

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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All very well, except that Farage's views on patriotism apply to other people and not to himself. He has stated that he will move elsewhere if (= when?) Brexit goes wrong. What is more, he is a pillar of the establishment enjoying all the benefits of his position to the full, but claims to be anti-establishment. None so blind as those who let themselves be taken in by a xenophobic bigot.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"All very well, except that Farage's views on patriotism apply to other people and not to himself. He has stated that he will move elsewhere if (= when?) Brexit goes wrong. What is more, he is a pillar of the establishment enjoying all the benefits of his position to the full, but claims to be anti-establishment. None so blind as those who let themselves be taken in by a xenophobic bigot."

If you examine my post, I think you'll find yourself described within it.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause. "

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change …

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change … "

Sticking to a policy isn’t difficult when it’s a simple “I don’t like foreigners but enjoy a pint of beer”.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"All very well, except that Farage's views on patriotism apply to other people and not to himself. He has stated that he will move elsewhere if (= when?) Brexit goes wrong. What is more, he is a pillar of the establishment enjoying all the benefits of his position to the full, but claims to be anti-establishment. None so blind as those who let themselves be taken in by a xenophobic bigot.

If you examine my post, I think you'll find yourself described within it."

If you think I have a closed mind and do not understand politics (as you obviously believe you do) simply because I don't think a xenophobic bigot like Farage is the best thing for the country at the moment, so be it. You may be right ... or you may be wrong (if that concept is even a possibility in your world).

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change …

Sticking to a policy isn’t difficult when it’s a simple “I don’t like foreigners but enjoy a pint of beer”. "

'... and foreign women, and foreign nationality for my children and the option of moving to a foreign country when Brexit doesn't work out ...'

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change …

Sticking to a policy isn’t difficult when it’s a simple “I don’t like foreigners but enjoy a pint of beer”.

'... and foreign women, and foreign nationality for my children and the option of moving to a foreign country when Brexit doesn't work out ...' "

Do you ever wish for a rational mind? What's wrong with foreign women? If the opportunity arises it makes perfect sense for people to have dual nationality, even if it's just for ease of travel. Finally, if Brexit doesn't happen, what's the point of staying in a broken country that will shortly become a vassal state of Germany? It's fast getting to the state where UK just isn't, anymore. Brexit is probably the last chance to ensure our sovereignty and along with it, any semblance of British culture …… but I expect all that to go completely over your head, or worse still, for you to not give a toss.

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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Having a German leader might suit some people.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change … "

We will just have to agree to differ on that one. Trying to find their niche in the political system has not been easy for ChaangeUK. They have not got any 'Big Hitters' like the famous Gang of Four in the early '80s. Nor have they managed to attract the predicted mass walkout by disenchanted Labour MPs that they hoped for. I personally think Farage is missing a golden opportunity to put over his case in this otherwise dull and rather pointless election campaign.

I saw the Brexit Party's election broadcast last night. A bit comical but not exactly awe inspiring.

BTW they have now magically become the fourth largest party in the Welsh Assembly.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change …

Sticking to a policy isn’t difficult when it’s a simple “I don’t like foreigners but enjoy a pint of beer”.

'... and foreign women, and foreign nationality for my children and the option of moving to a foreign country when Brexit doesn't work out ...'

Do you ever wish for a rational mind? What's wrong with foreign women? If the opportunity arises it makes perfect sense for people to have dual nationality, even if it's just for ease of travel. Finally, if Brexit doesn't happen, what's the point of staying in a broken country that will shortly become a vassal state of Germany? It's fast getting to the state where UK just isn't, anymore. Brexit is probably the last chance to ensure our sovereignty and along with it, any semblance of British culture …… but I expect all that to go completely over your head, or worse still, for you to not give a toss."

You must be very arrogant to label anyone who disagrees with you irrational. Is there any single thing Farage has ever said or done that you disagree with, or does your hero-worship make you deaf and blind?

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By *etssee5  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Having a German leader might suit some people. "

Because they might make our sausages bigger??

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By *ljcleeve   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Having a German leader might suit some people.

Because they might make our sausages bigger?? "

At least bigger sausages would be an improvement over the current leaders we have who only produced bigger lies.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"Having a German leader might suit some people.

Because they might make our sausages bigger??

At least bigger sausages would be an improvement over the current leaders we have who only produced bigger lies."

You mean they are politicians lol.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change …

Sticking to a policy isn’t difficult when it’s a simple “I don’t like foreigners but enjoy a pint of beer”.

'... and foreign women, and foreign nationality for my children and the option of moving to a foreign country when Brexit doesn't work out ...'

Do you ever wish for a rational mind? What's wrong with foreign women? If the opportunity arises it makes perfect sense for people to have dual nationality, even if it's just for ease of travel. Finally, if Brexit doesn't happen, what's the point of staying in a broken country that will shortly become a vassal state of Germany? It's fast getting to the state where UK just isn't, anymore. Brexit is probably the last chance to ensure our sovereignty and along with it, any semblance of British culture …… but I expect all that to go completely over your head, or worse still, for you to not give a toss.

You must be very arrogant to label anyone who disagrees with you irrational. Is there any single thing Farage has ever said or done that you disagree with, or does your hero-worship make you deaf and blind?"

I note that you don't answer the simple questions, but prefer to deflect with innuendo and thinly veiled insults …….. that's OK, but don't then expect to be taken seriously when you offer up your views for consumption. Debate by all means, but "slinging shit" isn't debating. You obviously have views given the number of posts you make, but you never explain/give reasons for your views. One of your favourites is, Farage is this, Farage is that ……. what actual actions of his have formed your strong opinions? Go back to my previous post, and answer the questions about Foreign wives, and dual nationality …. its not difficult if you have reasons other than the sound bites that float around the ether.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"A bit disappointed with Mr Farage at the moment. He was challenged to a live TV debate by Heidi Allen, leader of the ChangeUK Party. She wanted to go head-to-head with him on the subject of Brexit. He dismissed it with a contemptuous "Heidi who?" More rude than funny. He demolished Cleggy on the subject a few years ago and would probably done the same with Ms Allen plus probably gained support for his cause.

I find I agree with him, I wouldn't bother debating with anyone from the "Spoilt Child Party", either. I can see now why they're called Change. they've changed their name 3 times in the last month, and actually, from what I can make out, their policies are for anything but change …

Sticking to a policy isn’t difficult when it’s a simple “I don’t like foreigners but enjoy a pint of beer”.

'... and foreign women, and foreign nationality for my children and the option of moving to a foreign country when Brexit doesn't work out ...'

Do you ever wish for a rational mind? What's wrong with foreign women? If the opportunity arises it makes perfect sense for people to have dual nationality, even if it's just for ease of travel. Finally, if Brexit doesn't happen, what's the point of staying in a broken country that will shortly become a vassal state of Germany? It's fast getting to the state where UK just isn't, anymore. Brexit is probably the last chance to ensure our sovereignty and along with it, any semblance of British culture …… but I expect all that to go completely over your head, or worse still, for you to not give a toss.

You must be very arrogant to label anyone who disagrees with you irrational. Is there any single thing Farage has ever said or done that you disagree with, or does your hero-worship make you deaf and blind?

I note that you don't answer the simple questions, but prefer to deflect with innuendo and thinly veiled insults …….. that's OK, but don't then expect to be taken seriously when you offer up your views for consumption. Debate by all means, but "slinging shit" isn't debating. You obviously have views given the number of posts you make, but you never explain/give reasons for your views. One of your favourites is, Farage is this, Farage is that ……. what actual actions of his have formed your strong opinions? Go back to my previous post, and answer the questions about Foreign wives, and dual nationality …. its not difficult if you have reasons other than the sound bites that float around the ether."

In reply to your first insult - no, I don't ever wish for a rational mind as I already have one. There is nothing wrong per se with French women, having children registered as foreign nationals or leaving the country if what he has stood for fails - what is dubious is that he has nothing but criticism of the EU but will take every advantage that is offered to him while working towards a scenario where the vast majority of his followers will be denied the same benefits. That, in my opinion, reveals his contempt for those gullible enough to support him. As for my reasons for disliking him, he is often on local radio and TV and I dislike his hypocrisy and ideas - I don't need any more reasons than those. I won't be answering any more of your questions - I don't need to justify my views to you or anyone else. Choose another target for your aggression.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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Campaigners brand Farage a 'conman' as video surfaces of MEP boasting about salary.

worth a google!

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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Somewhat amused by one of Mr Farage's election addresses. He stated that only the Brexit Party can take us out of Europe. Okay they are bound to come out top in next week's poll but I doubt they will get more than 40% of the votes cast by those who can be bothered to go and vote. However it does not give them any power to do anything. Our MEPs have little say as it is, and with Article 50 still very much on the table they are non-people anyway.

T balance things out I hear Welsh Labour are pleading with people to vote for them to 'stop the rise of the far right'. But what about the rise of the far left. Under it's current fanatical hard left leadership Labour is no longer a rational left of centre middle ground party

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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LibDems have been the logical choice for many years.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"I don't need to justify my views to you or anyone else. Choose another target for your aggression."

You're happy to use a forum but not happy to debate? Interesting standpoint ..

Someone who questions your views is deemed aggressive? Do you ever questions yourself? ..

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"LibDems have been the logical choice for many years. "

I'm all for logic, but suggesting the LibDems are the answer??

This is from their website:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity."

Just one question …. what does the above mean? ……. its verbiage for the sake of verbiage as far as I can make out.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"LibDems have been the logical choice for many years. "

Technically yes they should be. During the 'New Labour' years they swung too far to the left and started embracing weird causes. Since then they have returned to the centre. Apart from Clegg they have suffered such awful, uninspiring leaders.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"LibDems have been the logical choice for many years.

I'm all for logic, but suggesting the LibDems are the answer??

This is from their website:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity."

Just one question …. what does the above mean? ……. its verbiage for the sake of verbiage as far as I can make out."

I actually agree with the statement from their website don't see anything which is difficult to understand.

I appreciate you might find it easier to understand a certain verbose gentleman who talks incessantly but only actually says "Lets get out of the EU innit" between pints lol.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"I don't need to justify my views to you or anyone else. Choose another target for your aggression.

You're happy to use a forum but not happy to debate? Interesting standpoint ..

Someone who questions your views is deemed aggressive? Do you ever questions yourself? .. "

Questioning my views is fine. Someone saying I lack a rational mind because I don't share his views is aggression. Matter closed for me - won't be responding again.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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"LibDems have been the logical choice for many years.

I'm all for logic, but suggesting the LibDems are the answer??

This is from their website:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity."

Just one question …. what does the above mean? ……. its verbiage for the sake of verbiage as far as I can make out.

I actually agree with the statement from their website don't see anything which is difficult to understand.

I appreciate you might find it easier to understand a certain verbose gentleman who talks incessantly but only actually says "Lets get out of the EU innit" between pints lol."

I agree, but his catchphrase at present is 'self-governing sovereign state'

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"LibDems have been the logical choice for many years.

I'm all for logic, but suggesting the LibDems are the answer??

This is from their website:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity."

Just one question …. what does the above mean? ……. its verbiage for the sake of verbiage as far as I can make out.

I actually agree with the statement from their website don't see anything which is difficult to understand.

I appreciate you might find it easier to understand a certain verbose gentleman who talks incessantly but only actually says "Lets get out of the EU innit" between pints lol."

Essentially I agree there. With a more inspiring leadership the ChangeUK group might have fused with them and together they could have been the flagship of the centre ground.

As for the other gentleman you mention he is a bit of a 'one trick pony' and, as I believe I said in an earlier post, his claim that voting for his party will deliver Brexit is an exaggeration of the facts.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"I don't need to justify my views to you or anyone else. Choose another target for your aggression.

You're happy to use a forum but not happy to debate? Interesting standpoint ..

Someone who questions your views is deemed aggressive? Do you ever questions yourself? ..

Questioning my views is fine. Someone saying I lack a rational mind because I don't share his views is aggression. Matter closed for me - won't be responding again."

You keep saying that …

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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"LibDems have been the logical choice for many years.

I'm all for logic, but suggesting the LibDems are the answer??

This is from their website:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity."

Just one question …. what does the above mean? ……. its verbiage for the sake of verbiage as far as I can make out.

I actually agree with the statement from their website don't see anything which is difficult to understand.

I appreciate you might find it easier to understand a certain verbose gentleman who talks incessantly but only actually says "Lets get out of the EU innit" between pints lol."

My point being, that any political party could use exactly the same words. They aren't specific to the aims of the LibDEms, they're just words that constitute a wish list. The real question, is how would the beige brigade (maybe platoon would be nearer the mark) bring about utopia? They haven't even got a leader at the moment! As for Cleggy? My God!! How uninspiring was he?? I suppose, given the nature of the LibDems, inspirational is hardly a term that could be used for their politics, their members, and therefore, any leader.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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I thought Clegg was a good leader and made a brave and correct decision to join a coalition and did a much better job whilst there than he was given credit for.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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Often the butt of jokes I thought Nick Clegg was a good leader. Rather unfortunate that he took his party from the dizzy height of success to near oblivion. Also a great pity he has now lost his parliamentary seat. Perhaps not inspiring but certainly popular and far superior to any other leader the LibDems have had before or since.

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*Ybear By *Ybear  (M) 27 weeks ago

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Although not strictly LibDem ( he was Liberal) I thought David Steel was the best leader they had and I think they have treated him appalling.

As for Nick Clegg he has sold his soul to Facebook and is currently trying to justify their censorship policy, i.e. right of centre bad left wing good, including terrorist groups such as hamas and hezbullah.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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Clegg was the reason I stopped voting Lib Dem - all show and no substance, much in the mould of Blair and Cameron. I also never forgave him for donating my vote to a party I would never vote for by going into coalition. I will now vote for them again as they are the largest of the Remain parties.

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*9al By *9al  (M) 27 weeks ago

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no one can trust the lib dems after the tuition fees pledge they will promise anything to get votes

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"no one can trust the lib dems after the tuition fees pledge they will promise anything to get votes "

Don't all parties promise the impossible just to get votes? Two parties in particular are hard at it at this very time. Also in coalitions compromises have to be made. Trouble is we are not used to them in this country so we expect all parties involved to deliver the impossible.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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There are two options as to how to govern, and two only. You borrow like hell to pay for things and tax like buggery to pay off the debt, or you spend responsibly and create jobs whilst allowing people to stand on their own two feet. There is no halfway house as espoused by the LibDems.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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The choices are to borrow money and tax like buggery to pay it back or tax like buggery to pay for it in the first place. The money will always have to come from taxation.

In reality we sometimes have to implement expensive plans which help us as a nation and this will involve some taxation and some borrowing.

At the moment the country is doing ok on most fronts especially with job creation.

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*usansilkysubcd By *usansilkysubcd  (TV/TS/CD) 27 weeks ago

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The simple fact is that if you want all the stuff Labour are promising such as renationalising everything, perfect NHS and schools, free buses and unicorns for all blah blah then everyone will simply have to pay more tax. If everyone is willing to pay 35% tax then fine, if not stfu. And you can’t say you will just tax the rich and huge companies more either. That is very naive as they are the only ones who can afford to just simply bugger off to another country and stick two fingers up at you from afar until your country is bankrupt.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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"The simple fact is that if you want all the stuff Labour are promising such as renationalising everything, perfect NHS and schools, free buses and unicorns for all blah blah then everyone will simply have to pay more tax. If everyone is willing to pay 35% tax then fine, if not stfu. And you can’t say you will just tax the rich and huge companies more either. That is very naive as they are the only ones who can afford to just simply bugger off to another country and stick two fingers up at you from afar until your country is bankrupt."

You’re right but in reality it would never be possible to raise enough taxes to keep labour promises even if that was what the nation wanted .. which I don’t think is the case.

I was driving through an expensive area a few days ago and was thinking that most of the wealthy home owners seemed to work very late into the evening when commuting to and from the City, but really noticeable was the number of work vans employed by these people .. gardeners, plumbers, builders etc. No matter what our ideals there is no denying that the wealthy do filter money down to provide employment as well as paying enormous sums in taxes ., direct and indirect, we have no reason not to like the rich any more than there is not to like the poor.

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*9al By *9al  (M) 27 weeks ago

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in the last 20 years there has been a widening of the gap between rich & poor. All Labour is suggesting is to narrow it a bit, the Scandinavian countries have significantly higher taxes but have not scared away all the rich people . Good transport, healthcare & schools are not unreasonable aspirations.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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Several other countries tax more to provide better services.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 27 weeks ago

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That is true. I lived in a country with high taxes and excellent services and well-subsidised public transport. I heard very few complaints about the high taxes as they were balanced by the services provided. We have become so accustomed to poor services in this country that I fear the outcome here might be higher taxes and continued poor service - the worst of both worlds. This is already evidenced by the annual increase in council tax together with constant cuts in services.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 27 weeks ago

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"in the last 20 years there has been a widening of the gap between rich & poor. All Labour is suggesting is to narrow it a bit, the Scandinavian countries have significantly higher taxes but have not scared away all the rich people . Good transport, healthcare & schools are not unreasonable aspirations. "

I cannot see how re-nationalising various industries and utilities will help narrow the gap between rich and poor. It is an unnecessary and outdated piece of socialist philosophy. Of course we want better healthcare, housing, education , transport etc but I doubt Labour could provide them any better than any other government. They haven't managed it in the past. Here in Wales we have a Labour so-called government but they would rather waste money on hare-brained schemes rather than the essentials.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 27 weeks ago

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Labour can only exist in its present form if it can convince enough people of a widening gap, or perceived gap, between rich and poor and an attainable utopia only Labour can achieve.

In reality the poor are much better off than any time in our history (leaving aside rhetoric and semantics) and the utopia is not achievable no matter how hard we try to convince.

Life is about compromise to achieve fairness and to improve things ... not extreme views about what might be.

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*usansilkysubcd By *usansilkysubcd  (TV/TS/CD) 27 weeks ago

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Well the only sound bite Labour have is this endless ‘ for the many not the few rubbish’. They just prattle on about how all poor people, nurses, teachers etc are all saintly angels who deserve everything and that all rich people, bankers, accountants, directors etc are all evil and will probably eat your babies if they got the chance. It’s outdated, pathetic and frankly embarrassing and all it does it create division that wasn’t there before, it doesn’t give solutions. Besides the fact that nowadays most people running Labour and Momentum are the rich elite anyway, it just makes them the party of envy. Here’s a thought kids, work hard, earn money, and maybe you will be successful too, instead of whinging about how you’re not.

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By (user no longer on site) 27 weeks ago

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Whover comes up with a genuine way of managing expectation should be treated as the Messiah. Right now, we are our own worst enemies, irrespective of what colour government we have. There are far too many people who feel they are entitled to everything without any input whatsoever. Maybe a massive cut back on handouts is the only way ..... I can't see any easy way to get there.

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