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Good luck to him!

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By *oondog   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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I'm not a Boris supporter and I fear the worst but I wish him luck and hope he succeeds.

I like the language of optimism and the sentiment of trying to get the agenda onto what is good and strong about Britain rather than constant pessimism.

I don't want it to continue into fantasyland of everything will be ok and it won't be difficult and I hope he does try and identify who will be most affected and try and help them.

If nothing else if he can move the Brexit issue on substantially then that will be something!

I'm not sure what else he stands for but no doubt we'll find out.

Tomorrow could be interesting when he becomes PM and chooses his cabinet (barring mishaps of course).

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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I feel much the same. Not a big fan but he is certainly the best of the bunch of current party leaders. Not an easy task and I am surprised so many want this almost impossible job. I still see it as something of a poisoned chalice. I did quite like his acceptance speech. We need a bit of optimism with so much doom and gloom around.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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I thought his acceptance speech was awful. A few platitudes delivered in a bombastic manner have done nothing to sway me. I wish him the loyalty he displayed towards his former party leader. He has a mandate from about 0.2% of the population - let them be loyal to him but the rest of us owe him nothing. Being optimistic is one thing, being realistic another thing altogether. The Tories interviewed on the radio this afternoon believe he will re-present May's deal and possibly get it through as people like the ERG will support it if it has his name on it. Interesting!

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By *iscovery602   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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Boris was put in same as trump, by Mr Putin to cause havoc.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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I see the conspiracy theorists are out tonight

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Boris was put in same as trump, by Mr Putin to cause havoc."

ROFL. But has Elvis left the building?

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By *ikkey69  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Elvis works in our local chippy??

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Elvis works in our local chippy??"

Psst. Putin put him there. He’s a spy.

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*avid93111 By *avid93111  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Nothing will sway a fervent labour supporter, so why bother to tell us, why not instead give him a chance , but of course that’s not in lefties nature.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Elvis works in our local chippy??

Psst. Putin put him there. He’s a spy. "

do you probably mean Trump, he was the only who promoted him in his twitters.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"I'm not a Boris supporter and I fear the worst but I wish him luck and hope he succeeds.

I like the language of optimism and the sentiment of trying to get the agenda onto what is good and strong about Britain rather than constant pessimism.

I don't want it to continue into fantasyland of everything will be ok and it won't be difficult and I hope he does try and identify who will be most affected and try and help them.

If nothing else if he can move the Brexit issue on substantially then that will be something!

I'm not sure what else he stands for but no doubt we'll find out.

Tomorrow could be interesting when he becomes PM and chooses his cabinet (barring mishaps of course)."

yes, good luck to him. even EU , seeing chaos and what is going on, told that they will help him as they can...

but paradox: eu also doesn't won't to have "any" deal, they at least would like to have a normal, good deal....

so, I think, "Luck" is exactly he needs.... especially with domestic problems..... each his speech is amazing, each time he don't improve himself.... I really wish a goooooooood Luck to his advisors.... I hope they are much better than he is (in all aspects) and they will be able to sort out problems he might create.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ..."

the only thing I really do not understand is that how he is going to unite country if he divides people..... uniting by dividing - it seams this is a knowhow approach and I really would like to see it)))))) the same strategy was applied in Roman Empire, but we all know whats happened afterwards

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By *orum reader  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Of course Boris should be given a chance

But as he himself set the limit October will be the limit of his chance

If we are not out then those wanting to leave will have a vote of no confidence If we do leave then those who want to remain will have a vote of no confidence

The EU will not renegotiate any important parts of the back stop so there will be no agreement and I doubt parliament will allow a no deal so I very much doubt we will leave by the 31st October of any year

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Just empty words. Deliver Brexit - how? Unite the country - how? Defeat Corbyn - how? Energise the country - how? More a case of divide and rule.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Just empty words. Deliver Brexit - how? Unite the country - how? Defeat Corbyn - how? Energise the country - how? More a case of divide and rule."

yes, as I told, roman style....

hope his advisors will be more clever and stronger and they , in reality, will do all job...

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Of course Boris should be given a chance

But as he himself set the limit October will be the limit of his chance

If we are not out then those wanting to leave will have a vote of no confidence If we do leave then those who want to remain will have a vote of no confidence

The EU will not renegotiate any important parts of the back stop so there will be no agreement and I doubt parliament will allow a no deal so I very much doubt we will leave by the 31st October of any year"

why "of course"? I would wish that all HR departments in all companies do the same. Our unemployment level will be zero.

but this is a PM-position, lets make it "of course".... for us it seams this is already OK to go down, deep and deeper..... so, lets make "of course"... millions people are nothing and their lives and future of their kind is also on a game.... so. agree... lets make "of course"

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Of course Boris should be given a chance

But as he himself set the limit October will be the limit of his chance

If we are not out then those wanting to leave will have a vote of no confidence If we do leave then those who want to remain will have a vote of no confidence

The EU will not renegotiate any important parts of the back stop so there will be no agreement and I doubt parliament will allow a no deal so I very much doubt we will leave by the 31st October of any year"

let me ADD a bit:

I think you do not differentiate one tiny thing.

1. there are people who want out

2. there are people who want to stay in

3. from the first category: there people who want to go out at ANY price

4. from the first category: there people who want to go out with "good/normal" deal and good/normal relationships

5. there are people who do not care and do not know what they want

6. from the 2nd category: there people who want to stay in with a new conditions

7. from the 2nd category: there are people that want to stay at any/ or as before, conditions

so, even if we want out, what is your categories: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 (you can choose even several)

my categories are: 1, 4 and 6. all these in my opinion would be good

(6 already was with Cameron)

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By (user no longer on site) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ..."

A libdem supporter who says he will vote for Corbyn ………… …. mind you, I suppose you can't get much more liberal than that...

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By (user no longer on site) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

the only thing I really do not understand is that how he is going to unite country if he divides people..... uniting by dividing - it seams this is a knowhow approach and I really would like to see it)))))) the same strategy was applied in Roman Empire, but we all know whats happened afterwards"

The only way ANYONE can unite this country, is to deliver Brexit, and then make a success of our leaving, but in order for ANYONE to do that, they have to be given our support. If this infighting continues it will go on forever, be never ending. Now, I understand why the that may excite some politicians, but why we, the ordinary people who depend upon politicians getting it right, choose to continue the disruption, is completely beyond me. Why on earth would you want your lives to be more miserable than they already are??

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

A libdem supporter who says he will vote for Corbyn ………… …. mind you, I suppose you can't get much more liberal than that... "

There is one condition that you conveniently overlook. There is a two-party system and the only viable choice is Tory or Labour in a general election. That being so, I would vote Labour sooner than Conservative. I voted Lib Dem in the local and European elections because they are a different kettle of fish. If Labour goes into the election on a remain manifesto I will probably vote for them; if not, I may vote Lib Dem even though I fear it will be a wasted vote.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

the only thing I really do not understand is that how he is going to unite country if he divides people..... uniting by dividing - it seams this is a knowhow approach and I really would like to see it)))))) the same strategy was applied in Roman Empire, but we all know whats happened afterwards

The only way ANYONE can unite this country, is to deliver Brexit, and then make a success of our leaving, but in order for ANYONE to do that, they have to be given our support. If this infighting continues it will go on forever, be never ending. Now, I understand why the that may excite some politicians, but why we, the ordinary people who depend upon politicians getting it right, choose to continue the disruption, is completely beyond me. Why on earth would you want your lives to be more miserable than they already are??"

Because I believe that Brexit will exacerbate the misery many-fold. There is not s single valid reason for Remainers to roll over and say do as you like, although that is what many Leavers appear to expect.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

the only thing I really do not understand is that how he is going to unite country if he divides people..... uniting by dividing - it seams this is a knowhow approach and I really would like to see it)))))) the same strategy was applied in Roman Empire, but we all know whats happened afterwards

The only way ANYONE can unite this country, is to deliver Brexit, and then make a success of our leaving, but in order for ANYONE to do that, they have to be given our support. If this infighting continues it will go on forever, be never ending. Now, I understand why the that may excite some politicians, but why we, the ordinary people who depend upon politicians getting it right, choose to continue the disruption, is completely beyond me. Why on earth would you want your lives to be more miserable than they already are??"

agree with the first statement... but it is partly incorrect - deliver a good (!!!!!) brexit.... otherwise other countries of UK may say their disappointment

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By *hemaligfreund   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

the only thing I really do not understand is that how he is going to unite country if he divides people..... uniting by dividing - it seams this is a knowhow approach and I really would like to see it)))))) the same strategy was applied in Roman Empire, but we all know whats happened afterwards

The only way ANYONE can unite this country, is to deliver Brexit, and then make a success of our leaving, but in order for ANYONE to do that, they have to be given our support. If this infighting continues it will go on forever, be never ending. Now, I understand why the that may excite some politicians, but why we, the ordinary people who depend upon politicians getting it right, choose to continue the disruption, is completely beyond me. Why on earth would you want your lives to be more miserable than they already are??"

I will never support the theft of my EU citizenship rights, freedoms and protections, and I know I am not alone in that. The enemy have still not given any factual benefits to leaving and show no sign of ever doing so.

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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I would suggest a 'floating voter' should be the last person to question another persons loyalty!

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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There is a difference between a voter changing allegiance (as no voter is expected to remain loyal to any party of leader forever) and an MP or cabinet member being loyal to their leader whose manifesto is at least partly the reason they have their job in the first place. Johnson has not gained power on the basis of any manifesto put the public. Like respect, loyalty has to be earned. Why should Johnson expect loyalty given his past performance in that respect? In the present case, only 0.2% of the population owe him any loyalty and that does not include his own MPs.

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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So what's good for the gander isn't good for the goose then. Eight of our 15 PMs since 1945 have arrived in office between elections. More people voted for Johnson than for any of his predecessors who came to power between elections. Remind me again how many votes did Brown get when he came to office? sorry i forgot things are more acceptable when you're on the left.

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By *ikkey69  (M) 8 weeks ago

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With respect , the people voted by a large majority to leave the EU. No-one is hijacking your rights not to leave, as someone who voted to stay, you were comprehensivly outvoted by the majority of voters.

So putting it bluntly, you lost , you dont like it but come 31st October start enjoying freedom and prosperity again.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"So what's good for the gander isn't good for the goose then. Eight of our 15 PMs since 1945 have arrived in office between elections. More people voted for Johnson than for any of his predecessors who came to power between elections. Remind me again how many votes did Brown get when he came to office? sorry i forgot things are more acceptable when you're on the left."

Who ever said two wrongs made a right? Not me. I was no Brown supporter and have never agreed with new leaders being foisted on us mid-term.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"With respect , the people voted by a large majority to leave the EU. No-one is hijacking your rights not to leave, as someone who voted to stay, you were comprehensivly outvoted by the majority of voters.

So putting it bluntly, you lost , you dont like it but come 31st October start enjoying freedom and prosperity again."

I think your obsession with 31 October may lead you to great disappointment. Two glory days have already come and gone so no reason why the third should be set in stone. Why will I enjoy freedom and prosperity after Brexit? Which country do you think I will be moving to?

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By *odensack   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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"With respect , the people voted by a large majority to leave the EU. No-one is hijacking your rights not to leave, as someone who voted to stay, you were comprehensivly outvoted by the majority of voters.

So putting it bluntly, you lost , you dont like it but come 31st October start enjoying freedom and prosperity again."

I depends on your definition of 'large majority' and 'comprehensively outvoted'. The results were: Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%); Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%). All the clubs, associations and societies I have been a member of required a two thirds majority for a major issue such as a rule change, change of objective or the like. This was to avoid the situation we now have of major division over a fundamental.

Then there is the status of a referendum itself. No Government is bound by a referendum. It's just an opinion poll. What matters is the ability of a Government to put through its policies. May couldn't get her policies re Brexit through. Johnson may or may not fare better. If the people want a Government that can deliver Brexit then they must return a House of Commons in a general election that will support that policy and enable a Government to be formed that can put it through parliament. We should have had a general election (or two) before now.

However, we can all be certain of one thing. Due to the extreme degree of hypocrisy with with public affairs are carried on in this country by those of all political persuasions, no matter who is in Government or who is the head of state we will all continue to be pissed on from a great height. Enjoy!

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By *ollydee   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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I voted to leave, and was the first to quote the democracy card, but it works both ways, if buffoon boris closes parliament down to get the leave vote through then apart from setting a very dangerous path for all future votes it is in no way democratic.

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By *ikkey69  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"With respect , the people voted by a large majority to leave the EU. No-one is hijacking your rights not to leave, as someone who voted to stay, you were comprehensivly outvoted by the majority of voters.

So putting it bluntly, you lost , you dont like it but come 31st October start enjoying freedom and prosperity again.

I depends on your definition of 'large majority' and 'comprehensively outvoted'. The results were: Remain: 16,141,241 (48.1%); Leave: 17,410,742 (51.9%). All the clubs, associations and societies I have been a member of required a two thirds majority for a major issue such as a rule change, change of objective or the like. This was to avoid the situation we now have of major division over a fundamental.

Then there is the status of a referendum itself. No Government is bound by a referendum. It's just an opinion poll. What matters is the ability of a Government to put through its policies. May couldn't get her policies re Brexit through. Johnson may or may not fare better. If the people want a Government that can deliver Brexit then they must return a House of Commons in a general election that will support that policy and enable a Government to be formed that can put it through parliament. We should have had a general election (or two) before now.

However, we can all be certain of one thing. Due to the extreme degree of hypocrisy with with public affairs are carried on in this country by those of all political persuasions, no matter who is in Government or who is the head of state we will all continue to be pissed on from a great height. Enjoy!"

In any vote a majority of 1 is still a majority and so thats a democratic decision that should stand .

So a majority of approx 1.5 million is a large majority !

Thats how a democratic vote works.

Nothing more and nothing less than that.

Pointless moaning about it or protesting, if you voted to leave then im sorry to tell you that your view was fairly and comprehensivly defeated.

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*etropolis By *etropolis   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

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*oredEric By *oredEric  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Johnson has to choose, either he follows the Churchill route or the Quisling route.

Early signs he's a self serving lickspittle so it's the Quisling route. He'll sell out every man woman and child.

The opposition need a clear out to find someone moderate, capable, and dependable, might need to look outside politicians who could stand against him. Sadly we've devolved into personality politics.

We need an anodyne, safe, does enough, grey figure. We need a John Major to step up.

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*9al By *9al  (M) 8 weeks ago

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perhaps you should join Boris & Ivanka trump in United Kingston ?

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?"

I voted to Leave but never considered I had won anything. Initially I as glad that the close division of votes came down on the Leave side by a small margin but hardly a victory. The behaviour from the Leave brigade since the referendum has embarrassed and annoyed me.

In reality the country is divided on Brexit both politically and generally and whatever we do it must be what is in the interests of the country as a whole not just to appease those making a noise.

We missed our best chance with May and I now hope Johnson can be as good as she was dealing with people here and overseas who have stopped giving a damn about us .. so not easy but it has to be done.

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By *ikkey69  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?"

The people who voted remain were in the minority so yes they were defeated by the people who chose to leave. End of!

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

The people who voted remain were in the minority so yes they were defeated by the people who chose to leave. End of!"

the question is how strong is the wish of to leave after all they saw and now know and after the fact that the forecast of non-deal brexit STILL avoided to publish openly.

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*atamite By *atamite  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand.""

agree... everything is a compromise....

Lincoln said good, but as I earlier said: dividing you cannot unite. roman strategy doesn't fork, it was in general very short-term strategy without long term success

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*atamite By *atamite  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

agree... everything is a compromise....

Lincoln said good, but as I earlier said: dividing you cannot unite. roman strategy doesn't fork, it was in general very short-term strategy without long term success

"

Boris Johnson is not particularly interested in unity at this stage. It's entirely about what gives himself and the Conservatives the greater chance of being electable, and to keep the Brexit party at bay. I don't think Johnson himself has any real principles on Brexit. His principle is power. I think his plan was that Brexit was never actually voted in favour of, and he could then ride the wave of Euro-scepticism into the top job on the promise of being the hard man toward the EU that Cameron wasn't.

There isn't going to be any unity in the UK for at least a generation, save for an existential crisis like a military invasion.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand.""

You are absolutely right but try telling that to some on either side. I admit that I have become a fervent remainer now due to the aggressive crowing of some leavers. That's a personality flaw - the more people tell me to shut up because my views no longer count, the louder I will shout.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

agree... everything is a compromise....

Lincoln said good, but as I earlier said: dividing you cannot unite. roman strategy doesn't fork, it was in general very short-term strategy without long term success

Boris Johnson is not particularly interested in unity at this stage. It's entirely about what gives himself and the Conservatives the greater chance of being electable, and to keep the Brexit party at bay. I don't think Johnson himself has any real principles on Brexit. His principle is power. I think his plan was that Brexit was never actually voted in favour of, and he could then ride the wave of Euro-scepticism into the top job on the promise of being the hard man toward the EU that Cameron wasn't.

There isn't going to be any unity in the UK for at least a generation, save for an existential crisis like a military invasion. "

Sadly I believe you are right. A very wise post.

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By *ikkey69  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

You are absolutely right but try telling that to some on either side. I admit that I have become a fervent remainer now due to the aggressive crowing of some leavers. That's a personality flaw - the more people tell me to shut up because my views no longer count, the louder I will shout. "

Some people just dont understand democracy !!

Shout all you like, no -one is listening , no -one will hear you, you lost your preferred option.. get on with life , lol

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*atamite By *atamite  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

You are absolutely right but try telling that to some on either side. I admit that I have become a fervent remainer now due to the aggressive crowing of some leavers. That's a personality flaw - the more people tell me to shut up because my views no longer count, the louder I will shout.

Some people just dont understand democracy !!

Shout all you like, no -one is listening , no -one will hear you, you lost your preferred option.. get on with life , lol"

You can pretend like it's fine to completely ignore the wishes of a very large minority if you like, but this approach has not worked out well, historically. It seems that some of the more virulent Brexit supporters have fallen into the trap of becoming vanguards of the revolution.

If the UK cannot find a political consensus on this issue then it's political chaos for the foreseeable future, with the 31st of October only being the start of it. If you think 52 percent of the vote is a consensus, the last 3 years doesn't really bear that out.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Some people just dont understand democracy !!"

You obviously have little idea about democracy and the use of the word has been bandied about lately with even less knowledge.

You cannot have absolute democracy as it would mean every single decision (from HS2 to buying office light bulbs) would have to be voted on by every single person in the country. So obviously absolute democracy isnt possible.

Do you believe Tony Blair should still be Prime Minister? He won the democratic vote and some (on here) believe that once a vote has taken place it stands forever. Maybe we should go back further and insist on a Churchill government.

What we have is a democratic system which works fairly well and certainly better than most of the world's other systems. Votes are taken. Votes can be overturned. What the people want today they may not want in five years time when so much is likely to have changed.

We should make sensible arguments .. that is our democratic right .. but we cannot pretend our argumants cannot be overturned by the same democratic process that put them there in the first place.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Some people just dont understand democracy !!

Shout all you like, no -one is listening , no -one will hear you, you lost your preferred option.. get on with life , lol"

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Some people just dont understand democracy !!

Shout all you like, no -one is listening , no -one will hear you, you lost your preferred option.. get on with life , lol"

I think you do not understand what is democracy. This is nothing to do with "shout". I recommend to start with analysis of the word and its building.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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I've said this before on here, on other social media sites, and face to face with friends and discussion groups; we were given a chance to return a Brexit Parliament in 2017 but we failed to do so. Theoretically we did since the two main parties both said they would hour the referendum result and they command around 550+ seats in the HOC. In reality we returned over 400 remain MPs. I don't think this reflects the will of the people on the vexed subject of Brexit as it was not a single issue election..

Democracy moves on. People change their minds. Remainers will try and argue that 400,000 voters have died who may have voted leave and 600,000 young people have reached voting age who may be more likely to support remain. Plus others may have changed their minds. All speculation of course.

In 2016 I voted to leave. Had there been a 2nd referendum say 18 months ago I might well have voted to remain. If God forbid] there is another referendum some time in the future I will definitely vote to leave again. Democracy , like opinions, are quite fluid

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By *ikkey69  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Please enlighten me on what democracy is , as your version will , Im sure , be nothing like the real explanation.

Probably another “remain view” making it up as they go along!!

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Please enlighten me on what democracy is , as your version will , Im sure , be nothing like the real explanation.

Probably another “remain view” making it up as they go along!!"

If that was aimed at me then you clearly neither read or understood my post.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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guys,

GOOD LUCK FOR US!

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Beyond the question of how the will of the GB public has or hasn't shifted since June 2016, there's the greater issue of certain Brexit supporters telling Remain to sit down and shut up as if Remain was some fringe position that only got a fifth of the vote or something. I'm afraid that if one wants Brexit to be a success, there will have to be compromises made such that everybody gets something they want, but no-one gets everything they want. As Abraham Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

You are absolutely right but try telling that to some on either side. I admit that I have become a fervent remainer now due to the aggressive crowing of some leavers. That's a personality flaw - the more people tell me to shut up because my views no longer count, the louder I will shout.

Some people just dont understand democracy !!

Shout all you like, no -one is listening , no -one will hear you, you lost your preferred option.. get on with life , lol"

Your ranting undermines those Leavers who try to put their argument in a more adult and reasonable manner. There are millions who agree with your definition of democracy (a static thing like the democracy of tin-pot dictators - one person, one vote ... one time) but there are also millions who are listening to and hearing the Remainer cause. You may just find that our voices need to be heard and acknowledged if the country is ever to be united again.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Please enlighten me on what democracy is , as your version will , Im sure , be nothing like the real explanation.

Probably another “remain view” making it up as they go along!!

If that was aimed at me then you clearly neither read or understood my post."

Your post was perfectly clear - someone is just not listening or reading. His finger is stuck on the exclamation mark !!!!!!

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Just had the misfortune of hearing his 'victory' speech. Lots about the miracles he is going to perform but not a single mention of how he will achieve any of them. And no sense of irony when referring to a 'democratic mandate' (his mandate from 0.2% of the population is hardly convincing).

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"Just had the misfortune of hearing his 'victory' speech. Lots about the miracles he is going to perform but not a single mention of how he will achieve any of them. And no sense of irony when referring to a 'democratic mandate' (his mandate from 0.2% of the population is hardly convincing)."

I also did....

not impressed.... expected details (as some of mp told this morning, he will give more details).... but.... nothing new or new details....

I was expecting that his speech will be his plan of actions.... what exactly he will do ... but probably I am deaf

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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It wasn't a bad speech. Sounded a bit off the cuff even though he had notes. I didn't really expect him to go into great detail as that could have been very long winded and very boring. No doubt he will thrash out those details with his new cabinet and speak at length about them from the dispatch boxes. We will have to wait and see.

I suspect this spurious claim that he was only elected by 0.2% of the population is based on the percentage of party members who voted for him out of the registered electorate. Well as I have repeatedly said before we do not have a presidential style prime ministerial democracy. Let's face it no other mid term PM have even been elected by their party membership. With Gordon Brown it was a fait accompli. With Theresa May much the same after Mrs Leadsom withdrew. Previous mid term PMs have been elected by their party MPs alone.

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By *poty   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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He will only be doing it for 3 months if we have a election at the end of October.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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I am well aware of how the system works and have not supported any of the PMs foisted upon us mid-term. It doesn't alter the fact that he has a mandate from a miniscule percentage of the population and they are the only ones who owe him support and loyalty. I think his speech littered his own path with banana skins. So many claims of what he will achieve and not a single detail of how - that will invite scrutiny and questions when he doesn't achieve half of what he has set out as his vision. He is going to sort out social care, the NHS, education, policing, Brexit, etc - I just can't see it.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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The only people who actually get to vote for Boris Johnson are the good folk of Uxbridge. The rest of us will, in time, vote for an MP who may or may not support him in the HOC. I blame Mr Blair for trying to glamorise the office of PM and turning it into something far more presidential and dictatorial.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"The only people who actually get to vote for Boris Johnson are the good folk of Uxbridge. The rest of us will, in time, vote for an MP who may or may not support him in the HOC. I blame Mr Blair for trying to glamorise the office of PM and turning it into something far more presidential and dictatorial."

not sure about Uxbridge)))))) they have memory, I think

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"He will only be doing it for 3 months if we have a election at the end of October. "

question about if he will resign if he do not deliver brexit remained without clear answer.

do you think elections can happen?

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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I didn't say anything about who voted for Johnson as their MP. I referred to his mandate, which is a different thing - his mandate comes solely from the party members who selected him as their leader and therefore our PM.

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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The way i see it Boris Johnson was voted head of the Conservative Party, as they are the current party in Government he therfore also becomes the Prime Minister, as far as i'm aware Jo Swinson was voted leader of the Lib/Dems using the very same systom yet no one is complaining that it's unfair and that she shouldn't be in that position because the public didn't vote.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 8 weeks ago

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"I didn't say anything about who voted for Johnson as their MP. I referred to his mandate, which is a different thing - his mandate comes solely from the party members who selected him as their leader and therefore our PM. "

So who should have voted for him then?

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*oredEric By *oredEric  (M) 8 weeks ago

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Politicians are always picked from a small pool of dubious talent by people with vested interests. It's no different for Johnson as any of his predecessors. All we know about Johnson is he doesn't hide his Establishment roots.

It won't change, they don't listen to the people whatever party is in charge, they follow the signs of the moment.

They isolate themselves from the real world we live in and tell us we're not entitled to comment.

We've learned with better access to information that these people are no more better able to run the country than the average person, and if they did nothing things would typically be no better or worse.

Whoever got the job they'll follow the agenda they're handed , we can go fuck ourselves. The vast majority want the same things, peace, safe to walk the streets, safe to bring up kids, education for all, healthcare for all, decent roads, reasonable affordable transport, and food that is safe to best and can afford. Most people can live without us fighting wars for oil companies. Most prefer politicians not to be corrupt, and that there should be a safety net for those who genuinely need it.

Sadly we seem to have lost sight of those basics in favour of greed and fuck the other person.

Travelling around other countries I'd say the model the have in Denmark seems fair, but it's bloody expensive to live there. We'd never accept that level of taxation.

Maybe one change we could make is that big companies can't avoid fair and equitable taxation. That you or I pay more than Amazon is patently ridiculous. That has to stop, but MPs are easily bought.

If we lurched left and put Corbyn in the reality is that nothing would change.

We need a better quality of person in politics.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"He will only be doing it for 3 months if we have a election at the end of October.

question about if he will resign if he do not deliver brexit remained without clear answer.

do you think elections can happen? "

I think he is too much of a narcissist to ever resign. I think there could well be an election before the year is out, though that is the last thing the Tories will want. However, they may feel heartened by Farage's offer of an 'arrangement'.

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By *nello  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"

So who should have voted for him then?"

I would suggest that several the first mentioned group in his speech ...

but it is my opinion....

the last of course - groups he cannot avoid

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"The way i see it Boris Johnson was voted head of the Conservative Party, as they are the current party in Government he therfore also becomes the Prime Minister, as far as i'm aware Jo Swinson was voted leader of the Lib/Dems using the very same systom yet no one is complaining that it's unfair and that she shouldn't be in that position because the public didn't vote."

There is a clear and obvious difference - her selection as party leader did not make her PM.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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"I didn't say anything about who voted for Johnson as their MP. I referred to his mandate, which is a different thing - his mandate comes solely from the party members who selected him as their leader and therefore our PM.

So who should have voted for him then?"

The system would need to change so that a change of leader of the party in government would trigger an election - that is the only way they can claim to have a mandate from the electorate. That will never happen as there is too much of a vested interest in maintaining the current flawed system.

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 8 weeks ago

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So you are saying leaders should be chosen depending on their level of power at the time hmmmm very democratic one rule for them another for us

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By (user no longer on site) 8 weeks ago

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"If that is supposed to refer to me, you've got it wrong as I am a Lib Dem supporter. According to your logic, you should therefore also be prepared to give Corbyn a chance without allowing others the option of not supporting him. I have no allegiance or loyalty to Johnson or the Tories and, as I already said, I wish him the same level of loyalty as he showed to his predecessor. What's sauce for the goose ...

A libdem supporter who says he will vote for Corbyn ………… …. mind you, I suppose you can't get much more liberal than that...

There is one condition that you conveniently overlook. There is a two-party system and the only viable choice is Tory or Labour in a general election. That being so, I would vote Labour sooner than Conservative. I voted Lib Dem in the local and European elections because they are a different kettle of fish. If Labour goes into the election on a remain manifesto I will probably vote for them; if not, I may vote Lib Dem even though I fear it will be a wasted vote."

There appears to be one item that YOU overlooked …. my post was accurate ..

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 8 weeks ago

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You are always right and accurate. One day we will all accept that you are god-like in your omniscience. Till then ...

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By (user no longer on site) 8 weeks ago

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Why not try to justify your statement, or at least point out why mine in incorrect?

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By *androlling  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?"

Actually agree with you here

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

Actually agree with you here"

actually, im not agree!

referendum is NOT a fight among people. and giving your vote for something depends mean that you won and defeated someone.

and it is foolish to think in opposite direction...

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

Actually agree with you here

actually, im not agree!

referendum is NOT a fight among people. and giving your vote for something depends mean that you won and defeated someone.and it is foolish to think in opposite direction..."

It all depends on the subject matter of the referendum in question. The matter of the EU, obviously uncovered some very strongly held beliefs, on both sides of the argument, hence the antagonistic face-offs that abound. I think it's understandable that once these opposite opinions were voiced, a social chasm between the two sides would develop, as it is impossible to appreciate the beliefs of the opposition. This is where May made her mistake in trying to cater for everyone. You can't do that when both sides are polar opposites.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

Actually agree with you here

actually, im not agree!

referendum is NOT a fight among people. and giving your vote for something depends mean that you won and defeated someone.and it is foolish to think in opposite direction...

It all depends on the subject matter of the referendum in question. The matter of the EU, obviously uncovered some very strongly held beliefs, on both sides of the argument, hence the antagonistic face-offs that abound. I think it's understandable that once these opposite opinions were voiced, a social chasm between the two sides would develop, as it is impossible to appreciate the beliefs of the opposition. This is where May made her mistake in trying to cater for everyone. You can't do that when both sides are polar opposites."

If that was the case then we would be have leaders who ensured that only the extremes of far left and far right had a say.

In reality may got it right. A leader of an entire population must cater forboth sides and those in the middle and this will quite rightly involve many compromises. The biggest group will invariably be the 'middle' ground.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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There is no middle when the question was yes or no.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

Actually agree with you here

actually, im not agree!

referendum is NOT a fight among people. and giving your vote for something depends mean that you won and defeated someone.and it is foolish to think in opposite direction...

It all depends on the subject matter of the referendum in question. The matter of the EU, obviously uncovered some very strongly held beliefs, on both sides of the argument, hence the antagonistic face-offs that abound. I think it's understandable that once these opposite opinions were voiced, a social chasm between the two sides would develop, as it is impossible to appreciate the beliefs of the opposition. This is where May made her mistake in trying to cater for everyone. You can't do that when both sides are polar opposites.

If that was the case then we would be have leaders who ensured that only the extremes of far left and far right had a say.

In reality may got it right. A leader of an entire population must cater forboth sides and those in the middle and this will quite rightly involve many compromises. The biggest group will invariably be the 'middle' ground."

There will always be a middle. That is where most people are. Most people do not want extrems. Even myself who wanted to leave the EU did not want Boris' daft jump into the ocean and hoping for the best. The middle is the majority of the country.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Wasn't it the people who voted Remain who were defeated?

Actually agree with you here

actually, im not agree!

referendum is NOT a fight among people. and giving your vote for something depends mean that you won and defeated someone.and it is foolish to think in opposite direction...

It all depends on the subject matter of the referendum in question. The matter of the EU, obviously uncovered some very strongly held beliefs, on both sides of the argument, hence the antagonistic face-offs that abound. I think it's understandable that once these opposite opinions were voiced, a social chasm between the two sides would develop, as it is impossible to appreciate the beliefs of the opposition. This is where May made her mistake in trying to cater for everyone. You can't do that when both sides are polar opposites.

If that was the case then we would be have leaders who ensured that only the extremes of far left and far right had a say.

In reality may got it right. A leader of an entire population must cater forboth sides and those in the middle and this will quite rightly involve many compromises. The biggest group will invariably be the 'middle' ground."

the leader for entire population doesnt exist. Leader for SIGNIFICANT majority, yes... but, the same as in case of trump, our copy of him (BJ), considering result of referendum, operate with "majority" that just not significant enough. But, we voted and we decided. So, we leave.

But, BJ is not a leader at all, nominal leader yes, but not real. I think.

EU was generous enough to give us each time something, with Cameron it was special agreement and conditions, with May it was several times delay in day of brexit. etc.

Now BJ perform "ultimatum" strategy. If EU do not agree with what we want Then we leave without deal. This is absolutely stupid! even if EU constantly repeat "tell us finally what you want ...." but we cannot/not able. I do not know.

EU also is not a stupid and will not agree with negative result for them. So, I understand EU....

watched Raab in Breakfast this morning. OMG, do we really deserve this cabinet? do we really have so many sins???

I am sure they will change strategy but time will be lost.

This cabinet and BJ are not able for compromises. This was May's mistake and they repeat it again and again....

So, to talk about leader of entire population - I think - in this case is impossible. There are too many domestic problems, long lasting and worsening each time, and our "leader" do not have a suitable reputation and suitable vision at all, so, we cannot consider a "leader"-factor, according to my opinion...

the only thing what I see on a daily basis is that people are less happy, less satisfied and more angry and society is very polarised (and not only with opinion, but also with social status and real life conditions).

It is always simple and quickly to destroy, but to create you need time and vision.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"There will always be a middle. That is where most people are. Most people do not want extrems. Even myself who wanted to leave the EU did not want Boris' daft jump into the ocean and hoping for the best. The middle is the majority of the country."

boris promised to leave EU.... how? with what consequences? how long? how is he going to solve problems? etc - he didnt promised anything.

even in his speech he told that non-deal is less probable, but in 2 days he changed his mind and now this is strategy No 1.

nothing new, he often changes his mind. But ..... will see....

at the end - the only who will struggle, are people, this middle and lower level. AND as we know, the gap b/w social groups is growing.

I have never seen so many homeless people on the roads.... 3-4 years ago they were really less.... now, on each corner... and... sometimes even really young people....

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

There will always be a middle. That is where most people are. Most people do not want extrems. Even myself who wanted to leave the EU did not want Boris' daft jump into the ocean and hoping for the best. The middle is the majority of the country."

Totally agree. The extremists on both sides are a minority. Trouble because they make such a song and dance about it anyone would think they were a majority.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

Totally agree. The extremists on both sides are a minority. Trouble because they make such a song and dance about it anyone would think they were a majority."

good told...

agree: smaller dog barking louder!

this explains a lot in this forum

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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I say again..... there is no middle ground. The question was Remain or Leave. Where is the middle ground in that? I'll also repeat AGAIN …. if Remain had edged the vote, would we have half left the EU, just to satisfy the people who voted to leave? NO WE WOULDN'T!! People may well have carried on protesting about the EU, but there wouldn't have been a part separation exercise carried out, EU business would have carried on as it did prior to any referendum. So, why do the losing side, the Remainers, have to be placated by part staying in the EU. Its nonsensical! Anyway, it's pretty obvious that May's plan, the half staying in, was the worst of both worlds, so, just what is this middle ground that you're talking about? What would be an acceptable middle ground solution, given that Freedom of movement is an absolute no no, EU law is an absolute no no, and that the ability to conduct our own trade deals is a must. Those three things alone wipe out middle ground, surely?

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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Of course the question was remain or leave. You cannot sensibly have a third option in a referendum otherwise you get an indecisive answer. However this simplistic remain/leave question did not mean that all leavers wanted a no-deal Brexit or that all remainers wanted to be tied to every whim and petty law that the EU throws at us. The whole thing is a total quagmire.

I voted leave and would do again but I still want us to leave in a sensible orderly fashion and not just pull up the drawbridge in a faragean fashion. It may not have been perfect but I still think Mrs May's deal was one of the most sensible ways of solving this major problem.

If BJ cannot get a better deal or failed to get his no deal alternative through parliament we could end up with a general election which would probably see this whole sorry business drawn out even further. A Labour government of a coalition of remain parties would probably lead to a 2nd referendum which could easily go either way. Even if it is another vote to leave a remain type government would probably go for a customs union which would mean that we leave in name only whilst still being tied to the EU yet having no say whatsoever in their shenanigans.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"I say again..... there is no middle ground. The question was Remain or Leave. Where is the middle ground in that? I'll also repeat AGAIN …. if Remain had edged the vote, would we have half left the EU, just to satisfy the people who voted to leave? NO WE WOULDN'T!! People may well have carried on protesting about the EU, but there wouldn't have been a part separation exercise carried out, EU business would have carried on as it did prior to any referendum. So, why do the losing side, the Remainers, have to be placated by part staying in the EU. Its nonsensical! Anyway, it's pretty obvious that May's plan, the half staying in, was the worst of both worlds, so, just what is this middle ground that you're talking about? What would be an acceptable middle ground solution, given that Freedom of movement is an absolute no no, EU law is an absolute no no, and that the ability to conduct our own trade deals is a must. Those three things alone wipe out middle ground, surely? "

you are mixing everything without understanding at all!!!! even hasn't understood what we ate talking about.

for your information:

there a 2 documents:

1. withdrawal agreement = terms of brexit

2. political declaration = future relationships

and you know that both were rejected by the parliament with their funny multiple votes.

there is nothing about freedom of movement, the only thing is is citizens right (eu in UK and UK in EU). the only mentioned is that during transitional period uk and eu citizens can move. that all.

you cannot conduct ANY trade deals freely if you are in any kind of any intention trade agreements. they always created to make a binding. If you want to make a deal you must respect existing deal to not create contradictions in international relationships b/w countries.

this was and is and will be.

stop dreaming!

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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In my opinion this whole sorry mess begins and ends firmly at the feet of Cameron and his advisors who rushed into a referendum with very little thought other than his own belief that it couldn't possibly have any outcome other than remain and because of this no other possibility was ever considered. I believe the sensible option may have been to run a series of referendums at seperate stages, yes it would have taken time but at least it may have lead to all of us knowing what was going on and may even have lead to an even compromise from each side. The first question should have been would you lie us to investigate the possibility of leaving the EU? If it had been yes then the Government could have looked into all possible scenarios then come back to the public and said these are the possible outcomes of leaving do you want us to continue? and so on. I know people would have got fed up with the whole thing but aren't we at that stage anyway, but may have stopped a lot of the situation we are in now with the argument it was/wasn't democratic and would have allowed both sides to change their minds at each progressive stage.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"In my opinion this whole sorry mess begins and ends firmly at the feet of Cameron and his advisors who rushed into a referendum with very little thought other than his own belief that it couldn't possibly have any outcome other than remain and because of this no other possibility was ever considered. I believe the sensible option may have been to run a series of referendums at seperate stages, yes it would have taken time but at least it may have lead to all of us knowing what was going on and may even have lead to an even compromise from each side. The first question should have been would you lie us to investigate the possibility of leaving the EU? If it had been yes then the Government could have looked into all possible scenarios then come back to the public and said these are the possible outcomes of leaving do you want us to continue? and so on. I know people would have got fed up with the whole thing but aren't we at that stage anyway, but may have stopped a lot of the situation we are in now with the argument it was/wasn't democratic and would have allowed both sides to change their minds at each progressive stage."

you are maybe right but this approach would me at least clever.

but I think Cameron was "trapped" by "friends&enemies" inside the gov who doesnt know what it is going. is right hand doesnt understand what the left one is doing, then the body is "out-of-order"...

my opinion, as before, there is a deep chaos in gov. and any references on referendum (where results are almost 50/50) will create more deeper gap among people's opinions.

this is the reason why I tell that the country needs a leader, with personality and vision, clear position and transparent ideas what and how. what we have no: nothing from this.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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" The first question should have been would you like us to investigate the possibility of leaving the EU? "

Have you forgotten "project fear", Cameron and Osbourne being the two main exponents. Plus, of course, the EU would have really laid it in thick, as the last thing they wanted was for us to leave, not to mention anyone else. No, that would have been a pointless question to ask. The questions they actually asked were the only two that could have been asked. Leave or Remain? We can't even say we've had then benefit of hindsight, as May and Co chucked as many spanners as they could find into the works. We are now where we should have been, straight after article 50 had been presented to the EU.

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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But bearing in mind Cameron walked pretty much as soon as he lost on the referendum, he would have had very little to do with any ongoing negotiations.

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*atamite By *atamite  (M) 7 weeks ago

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" The first question should have been would you like us to investigate the possibility of leaving the EU?

Have you forgotten "project fear", Cameron and Osbourne being the two main exponents. Plus, of course, the EU would have really laid it in thick, as the last thing they wanted was for us to leave, not to mention anyone else. No, that would have been a pointless question to ask. The questions they actually asked were the only two that could have been asked. Leave or Remain? We can't even say we've had then benefit of hindsight, as May and Co chucked as many spanners as they could find into the works. We are now where we should have been, straight after article 50 had been presented to the EU. "

If the UK wants to leave the EU with no disruption, it can transition over to a Norway, Switzerland or Iceland type of deal. Sorted.

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he !

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"But bearing in mind Cameron walked pretty much as soon as he lost on the referendum, he would have had very little to do with any ongoing negotiations."

My post concerned the questions asked on the referendum ….. see previous posts.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he ! "

Apart from the absolute, plain to see FACT that he never said that. The only people who said that were the Remain media, and their targets, the wishful thinking readers/listeners. Who knows, perhaps some thick as pigshit people actually believed that's what the message on the bus said? ...

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*hris51234 By *hris51234   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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The question would always be leave yes/no just as it was in the originol referendum but at different stages as more was known of how the outcome would be on a definate level rather than a speculative one with the public not the politicians having the final say as oposed to politicians upto and including the final decision to leave or to stay, however as the ship has already sailed pointless discussing it as i said in first post it was my opinion, something we all have.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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To be fair during hundreds of interviews and thousands of forum posts a very high percentage of the population, both Remainers and Leavers do seriously and honestly believe that was said and that the money would go to the nhs. Even if you believe it was not actually said it is obvious to everyone that the statement was made to deliberately fool the electorate by implying the money would be spent on the nhs.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he !

Apart from the absolute, plain to see FACT that he never said that. The only people who said that were the Remain media, and their targets, the wishful thinking readers/listeners. Who knows, perhaps some thick as pigshit people actually believed that's what the message on the bus said? ... "

hahahahahaha.... probably you are the biggest BJ's fan....

can you give a list of this "bad" media?

and yes, he told and it was written on the bus in clear words....

(but as usually , wrong numbers and lies)

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he !

Apart from the absolute, plain to see FACT that he never said that. The only people who said that were the Remain media, and their targets, the wishful thinking readers/listeners. Who knows, perhaps some thick as pigshit people actually believed that's what the message on the bus said? ... "

They did and they voted leave. The person who came up with the slogan has said it was deliberately misleading by stating an option (let's fund ...) as if it were a decision so as to attract potential leave voters (who you now claim are thick as pigshit).

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"To be fair during hundreds of interviews and thousands of forum posts a very high percentage of the population, both Remainers and Leavers do seriously and honestly believe that was said and that the money would go to the nhs. Even if you believe it was not actually said it is obvious to everyone that the statement was made to deliberately fool the electorate by implying the money would be spent on the nhs. "

I makes its job - people trusted and voted, not each everyone of course.....

my opinion: it started from lies, done with lies and is going with lies.... shame

this is classical manipulation ..... you manipulate crowds....

why he didnt told how much uk received from eu according to eu programmes? because this will have a "bad" look... it is better to say that we only give give and give and do not mention that we also get get get....

I really do not trust BJ&Co... more than I didnt trusted May&Co

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"To be fair during hundreds of interviews and thousands of forum posts a very high percentage of the population, both Remainers and Leavers do seriously and honestly believe that was said and that the money would go to the nhs. Even if you believe it was not actually said it is obvious to everyone that the statement was made to deliberately fool the electorate by implying the money would be spent on the nhs. "

…. in that case, that same percentage of people are illiterate, no ifs or buts about it. How could anyone who purports to read and write not understand that it was simply an attention catching statement to illustrate that we could spend the money in other directions, other than the direction of the EU?? Unless it was attention catching, there was no point in writing anything on the bloody bus! That's how advertising works, haven't you noticed???

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he !

Apart from the absolute, plain to see FACT that he never said that. The only people who said that were the Remain media, and their targets, the wishful thinking readers/listeners. Who knows, perhaps some thick as pigshit people actually believed that's what the message on the bus said? ...

They did and they voted leave. The person who came up with the slogan has said it was deliberately misleading by stating an option (let's fund ...) as if it were a decision so as to attract potential leave voters (who you now claim are thick as pigshit)."

I don't think the words he used were "deliberately misleading", so don't try and fudge the argument to your own viewpoint by your own deliberate misleading ..

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

I don't think the words he used were "deliberately misleading", so don't try and fudge the argument to your own viewpoint by your own deliberate misleading .. "

if you do not think, this is of course your right and your freely taken decision.

BUT, composition of words and your personal interpretation DOES NOT change result and fact, even if you want it

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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You may like ' misleading ' pensioners and children. Your lifestyle is your choose. Is that how you taught your children? You know exactly what the intention of the message was. You are the fudger as usual. That because your arguments are built very soft shit. You are a traitor to Britain.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

…. in that case, that same percentage of people are illiterate, no ifs or buts about it. How could anyone who purports to read and write not understand that it was simply an attention catching statement to illustrate that we could spend the money in other directions, other than the direction of the EU?? Unless it was attention catching, there was no point in writing anything on the bloody bus! That's how advertising works, haven't you noticed???"

from my point of view, it wasn't an "attention catching statement", I believe that his team and he are not so stupid.... it was planned and thought well strategy.... and from my point of view, this was an attention catching misleading playing on population's wishes to make our country better, especially in NHS sector

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he !

Apart from the absolute, plain to see FACT that he never said that. The only people who said that were the Remain media, and their targets, the wishful thinking readers/listeners. Who knows, perhaps some thick as pigshit people actually believed that's what the message on the bus said? ...

They did and they voted leave. The person who came up with the slogan has said it was deliberately misleading by stating an option (let's fund ...) as if it were a decision so as to attract potential leave voters (who you now claim are thick as pigshit).

I don't think the words he used were "deliberately misleading", so don't try and fudge the argument to your own viewpoint by your own deliberate misleading .. "

You don't 'think' he admitted to his words being deliberately ambiguous but you don't 'know'? So don't try and fudge the argument to your own viewpoint with your own deliberate spin.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"To be fair during hundreds of interviews and thousands of forum posts a very high percentage of the population, both Remainers and Leavers do seriously and honestly believe that was said and that the money would go to the nhs. Even if you believe it was not actually said it is obvious to everyone that the statement was made to deliberately fool the electorate by implying the money would be spent on the nhs.

…. in that case, that same percentage of people are illiterate, no ifs or buts about it. How could anyone who purports to read and write not understand that it was simply an attention catching statement to illustrate that we could spend the money in other directions, other than the direction of the EU?? Unless it was attention catching, there was no point in writing anything on the bloody bus! That's how advertising works, haven't you noticed???"

I don't know a single Remainer who voted on the basis of the wording on the bus. I do know many Leavers who quoted it as one of the reasons for their vote, so you are only claiming that Leavers are thick as pigshit. Interesting.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"To be fair during hundreds of interviews and thousands of forum posts a very high percentage of the population, both Remainers and Leavers do seriously and honestly believe that was said and that the money would go to the nhs. Even if you believe it was not actually said it is obvious to everyone that the statement was made to deliberately fool the electorate by implying the money would be spent on the nhs.

…. in that case, that same percentage of people are illiterate, no ifs or buts about it. How could anyone who purports to read and write not understand that it was simply an attention catching statement to illustrate that we could spend the money in other directions, other than the direction of the EU?? Unless it was attention catching, there was no point in writing anything on the bloody bus! That's how advertising works, haven't you noticed???

I don't know a single Remainer who voted on the basis of the wording on the bus. I do know many Leavers who quoted it as one of the reasons for their vote, so you are only claiming that Leavers are thick as pigshit. Interesting."

Err …. no. Some weird thinking on your part, there. No doubt some leavers may have, but the vast majority of people who refer to the message on the bus are remoaners …… its one of their classic excuses for losing the vote, just go back over the threads on here, if you don't believe me ……….

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"Havent forgotten project, dont worry everything is going to be better than anything has ever been before. The nhs will get 350 million a week extra, now who kept saying that, the liar bojo

not such a laugh anymore is he !

Apart from the absolute, plain to see FACT that he never said that. The only people who said that were the Remain media, and their targets, the wishful thinking readers/listeners. Who knows, perhaps some thick as pigshit people actually believed that's what the message on the bus said? ...

They did and they voted leave. The person who came up with the slogan has said it was deliberately misleading by stating an option (let's fund ...) as if it were a decision so as to attract potential leave voters (who you now claim are thick as pigshit).

I don't think the words he used were "deliberately misleading", so don't try and fudge the argument to your own viewpoint by your own deliberate misleading ..

You don't 'think' he admitted to his words being deliberately ambiguous but you don't 'know'? So don't try and fudge the argument to your own viewpoint with your own deliberate spin."

Mr Picky strikes again ……..

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*etropolis By *etropolis   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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All this nonsense about what was on a bus. Just google it and look for yourselves. There's nothing ambiguous in what it says. If you think there is, then you are deluding yourself and trying to influence others to your way of thinking.

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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It is very ambiguous. And you know exactly what the intention of it was. You are deluding yourself if you cant see that.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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Regardless of anything we say or think on here it is an indisputable fact that many thousands of people did read the bus message as promising the money to the NHS. We can call all those thousands of people thickos but it doesn’t change the fact that they were fooled by a message which those responsible admit was deliberately ambiguous.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"It is very ambiguous. And you know exactly what the intention of it was. You are deluding yourself if you cant see that. "

I totally agree.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"It is very ambiguous. And you know exactly what the intention of it was. You are deluding yourself if you cant see that. "

It never crossed my mind that it meant anything other than what it stated … amazing what a half decent education can do, isn't it? Teaches you to read and comprehend, you know, useful stuff, like that! Are you actually admitting that you read it to mean £350 million per week would be spent on the NHS? Seriously? If you DIDN'T then why are you sticking up for the thicko's who did, and what's more, why are you sticking up for the unscrupulous media Remainers and Remain politicians who further tried to convince people that the message on the bus was a downright lie rather than an indication that we could spend money on matters of our own choosing?

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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It was a very cleverly worded political publicity stunt. Read quickly it could be construed as something a bit different as it would if read slowly. I do wonder just how much it influenced voters. Probably nowhere near as much as the bad losers aka the remainers, thought. Let's face it the courts did not think it was an offence.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 7 weeks ago

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I see the Bozo now has a working majority of one. I now understand why Cummings has been pepping up the Tory election campaign and foresee a snap election, in the hopes that the Boris bounce will attract enough Tories back from the Brexshit Party to give them a workable majority.

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*usansilkysubcd By *usansilkysubcd  (TV/TS/CD) 7 weeks ago

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Got help us all if the Lib Dem’s become popular. It’s wishy washy liberalism seeping into our everyday lives like a cancer that has got the world in the mess it is now. Are they in double figures for mps yet?

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Got help us all if the Lib Dem’s become popular. It’s wishy washy liberalism seeping into our everyday lives like a cancer that has got the world in the mess it is now. Are they in double figures for mps yet?"

Yes that would make sense if the Libdems were completely liberal, the Conservatives were absolutely conservative and Labour actually did some work.

If you want to match a party to it's title vote Green!!!

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

If you want to match a party to it's title vote Green!!!"

Would that be green as in wanting to make the world a greener place, or green as in greenhorn?

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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Or rhyme a parties colour to show what they are.

Blue as in poo.

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By *nello  (M) 7 weeks ago

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" Or rhyme a parties colour to show what they are.

Blue as in poo. "

if poo is blue then this is a really serious condition....

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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But it looks so pretty.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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Or red as in dead

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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Or boris as in rubbish

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Or boris as in rubbish"

Doesn't rhyme. Isn't a colour. So epic fail with your little game

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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You dot get poetry , do you!!

Unless jts a childs little ditty.

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By *rossthefreak  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

I will never support the theft of my EU citizenship rights, freedoms and protections, and I know I am not alone in that. The enemy have still not given any factual benefits to leaving and show no sign of ever doing so."

I support this statement wholeheartedly and it is theft. Rights and freedoms given to us by the establishment taken away by family members ex friends and random strangers instigated by people who do not represent my views.

All this has done is divide the country split family, friends and communities caused a hostile angry mood across the nation. It’s Brought about a rise in right wing views that haven’t been seen since the NF days.

Now in my late 30s my views are well and truly not changeable. I was brought up in a working class family that voted Tory?????? The me, me, money, more now generation. My parents were racist, homophobic father was sexist and narrow minded but they defended their views because they had pride in British values, and traditional family values. I grew up around this and started taking an interest in politics, education policy, social norms. Things were happening not a fan of Blair but I think things started their with him. He grabbed the young vote.

From there successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept,welcome,embrace and diversity. And these things have been enshrined in law.

What we have now is a generation coming of age after being taught to accept that are hearing how so many people want the “good old days, when we were a great nation” come on people. No one I have heard talking voted for independent trade deals. All I hear is close the borders, send them back, bring back the death penalty and blue passports.

Get real the empire is dead thankfully. I don’t want to live in “little Britain” how about the government let the remainders continue as eu citizens and pay a small personal fee for all the rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen and strip the leavers of all eu privileges and give them a non eu passport. Failing that agree with the eu a relocation package for those who wish to remain in the eu a bit like the “£10 poms” back in the good old days.

A lot of you guys on here can probably remember when homosexuality was illegal. What a thought sex between 2 consenting adults punishable by a prison sentence, yes back in the good old days. Or pak** bashing Or queer bashing was common, a pass time of my father and stepfather in their youth. Back in the good old days when all you had to do to become middle class was buy your own council house and vote Tory.

To end this my mother’s views have done a complete 360 and my sister was brought up not being exposed to detrimental ideals and has grown to be a well rounded open minded remainer as I am as my wife is and as my mother is.

This is going to affect generations to come but not in my name. Yes I will continue to waste my vote on the Liberal Democrat’s in each and every vote as I have done since coming of age

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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Good for you. A thoughtful contribution.

xxx

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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All this talk of enemies, loss of rights etc is sheer scaremongering on behalf of the Remainers. Just as bad as the Brexiteers and their warnings of a soviet style European super state. The extremists on both sides are as bonkers as each other.

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*astkenter By *astkenter  (M) 7 weeks ago

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It is only scaremongering if you are not personally affected but is very real to those affected. In my opinion, this is on a par with telling someone with serious depression or anxiety to pull themselves together. A bit of empathy would not go amiss, even if it does get you labelled as a snowflake.

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By *ikey1973   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

I will never support the theft of my EU citizenship rights, freedoms and protections, and I know I am not alone in that. The enemy have still not given any factual benefits to leaving and show no sign of ever doing so.

I support this statement wholeheartedly and it is theft. Rights and freedoms given to us by the establishment taken away by family members ex friends and random strangers instigated by people who do not represent my views.

All this has done is divide the country split family, friends and communities caused a hostile angry mood across the nation. It’s Brought about a rise in right wing views that haven’t been seen since the NF days.

Now in my late 30s my views are well and truly not changeable. I was brought up in a working class family that voted Tory?????? The me, me, money, more now generation. My parents were racist, homophobic father was sexist and narrow minded but they defended their views because they had pride in British values, and traditional family values. I grew up around this and started taking an interest in politics, education policy, social norms. Things were happening not a fan of Blair but I think things started their with him. He grabbed the young vote.

From there successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept,welcome,embrace and diversity. And these things have been enshrined in law.

What we have now is a generation coming of age after being taught to accept that are hearing how so many people want the “good old days, when we were a great nation” come on people. No one I have heard talking voted for independent trade deals. All I hear is close the borders, send them back, bring back the death penalty and blue passports.

Get real the empire is dead thankfully. I don’t want to live in “little Britain” how about the government let the remainders continue as eu citizens and pay a small personal fee for all the rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen and strip the leavers of all eu privileges and give them a non eu passport. Failing that agree with the eu a relocation package for those who wish to remain in the eu a bit like the “£10 poms” back in the good old days.

A lot of you guys on here can probably remember when homosexuality was illegal. What a thought sex between 2 consenting adults punishable by a prison sentence, yes back in the good old days. Or pak** bashing Or queer bashing was common, a pass time of my father and stepfather in their youth. Back in the good old days when all you had to do to become middle class was buy your own council house and vote Tory.

To end this my mother’s views have done a complete 360 and my sister was brought up not being exposed to detrimental ideals and has grown to be a well rounded open minded remainer as I am as my wife is and as my mother is.

This is going to affect generations to come but not in my name. Yes I will continue to waste my vote on the Liberal Democrat’s in each and every vote as I have done since coming of age"

That was a good interesting post. We’ve become too used to one-liner rhetoric and snipes recently.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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"

I will never support the theft of my EU citizenship rights, freedoms and protections, and I know I am not alone in that. The enemy have still not given any factual benefits to leaving and show no sign of ever doing so.

I support this statement wholeheartedly and it is theft. Rights and freedoms given to us by the establishment taken away by family members ex friends and random strangers instigated by people who do not represent my views.

All this has done is divide the country split family, friends and communities caused a hostile angry mood across the nation. It’s Brought about a rise in right wing views that haven’t been seen since the NF days.

Now in my late 30s my views are well and truly not changeable. I was brought up in a working class family that voted Tory?????? The me, me, money, more now generation. My parents were racist, homophobic father was sexist and narrow minded but they defended their views because they had pride in British values, and traditional family values. I grew up around this and started taking an interest in politics, education policy, social norms. Things were happening not a fan of Blair but I think things started their with him. He grabbed the young vote.

From there successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept,welcome,embrace and diversity. And these things have been enshrined in law.

What we have now is a generation coming of age after being taught to accept that are hearing how so many people want the “good old days, when we were a great nation” come on people. No one I have heard talking voted for independent trade deals. All I hear is close the borders, send them back, bring back the death penalty and blue passports.

Get real the empire is dead thankfully. I don’t want to live in “little Britain” how about the government let the remainders continue as eu citizens and pay a small personal fee for all the rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen and strip the leavers of all eu privileges and give them a non eu passport. Failing that agree with the eu a relocation package for those who wish to remain in the eu a bit like the “£10 poms” back in the good old days.

A lot of you guys on here can probably remember when homosexuality was illegal. What a thought sex between 2 consenting adults punishable by a prison sentence, yes back in the good old days. Or pak** bashing Or queer bashing was common, a pass time of my father and stepfather in their youth. Back in the good old days when all you had to do to become middle class was buy your own council house and vote Tory.

To end this my mother’s views have done a complete 360 and my sister was brought up not being exposed to detrimental ideals and has grown to be a well rounded open minded remainer as I am as my wife is and as my mother is.

This is going to affect generations to come but not in my name. Yes I will continue to waste my vote on the Liberal Democrat’s in each and every vote as I have done since coming of age"

Their is one major problem with your well written piece …….. you have not experienced life prior to Maastricht.

Other areas for debate are, for example, whether "successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept, welcome, and embrace diversity", is a good thing. From a lot of people's perspective, it isn't. All the effort that was expended on trying to get multiculturalism to succeed was a complete and utter waste and only resulted in sowing the seeds for what has now blossomed, a ghetto mentality, which in itself promotes racial hatred and further separatist factions. Multiculturalism is at the root of many of the problems that this country faces. We even have different cultures within our own native ethnicity, nowadays, which simply cannot be right if we're looking to achieve a social model that promotes harmony. We need to rediscover a national identity, and that cannot be achieved by further dilution of ethnicity, the EU being a prime example of that dilution.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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"It is only scaremongering if you are not personally affected but is very real to those affected. In my opinion, this is on a par with telling someone with serious depression or anxiety to pull themselves together. A bit of empathy would not go amiss, even if it does get you labelled as a snowflake."

I would hardly compare this in/out the EU obsession with something like depression or a mental illness for which I have every sympathy. I do wonder if you are empathising with the extreme Brexiteers as well as the extreme Remainers. Whilst appreciating the concerns of both sides I find it hard to empathise with either extreme point of view.

Note I did not quote anyone because the bulk of the one post was well written and interesting

.

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*etropolis By *etropolis   profile verified by photo (M) 7 weeks ago

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_rossthefreak, the death penalty and homosexuality being illegal are nothing to do with being in Europe. They were both abolished before we joined.

What are "all these rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen"? List at least 10.

As for the idea of letting remainders (your word) continue as EU citizens, what a load of bollocks. How in your narrow view of life would this work?

I'm afraid you're sounding just like another one who has no idea what GB was like before joining the EU. Yes there were problems but as a nation, we dealt with it and were proud to do so.

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By *rossthefreak  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"_rossthefreak, the death penalty and homosexuality being illegal are nothing to do with being in Europe. They were both abolished before we joined.

What are "all these rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen"? List at least 10.

As for the idea of letting remainders (your word) continue as EU citizens, what a load of bollocks. How in your narrow view of life would this work?

I'm afraid you're sounding just like another one who has no idea what GB was like before joining the EU. Yes there were problems but as a nation, we dealt with it and were proud to do so."

.

Ah yes mister grammar officer I meant remainers. I shan’t list anything for you as my opinion is just that mine and you are free to have your opinion. However https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT will take you to the eu charter of rights which will list more than 10 for you all valid as eu law takes president over uk law.

No thankfully I have no idea what the uk was like prior to joining the eu but I have spent enough time around many people not including family that do, there ideas and values are outdated and very backward.

I for one do not trust the uk government they can’t agree on anything amongst themselves, they would be free to govern as they choose without being overseen by the eu which has as I linked a charter of rights. We once had Magna Carta the American constitution is founded on that and it was once valid here but due to acts, statutes, and amendments and various rulings this has now been watered down and is basically null and void.

Why not let remainers stay eu citizens wouldn’t that be true democracy. Not the supposed uk idea that the unelected public decide the fate of those that have a different viewpoint. There is no democracy. People forget the governing party don’t work for the people first and foremost they are there to protect the national interest and economy. Anything else is secondary. You x a box based on who will benefit you and your family best based on false promises and hope for the best they get in and and argue amongst themselves never really doing anything they promised, never legally accountable for their inaction.

Yes indeed both were abolished prior to joining the eu but without their oversight what’s to say they couldn’t be reinstated it would be possible, maybe highly unlikely but possible. But these are the things from the good old days. As I said in my original post I never once heard the general public talking about trade deals. All I heard was talk of immigration, harsher uk made laws, and crap about during the bloody war.

Move with the times people live and let live it’s now a new generation that should be deciding their countries future not the old boys club or coffin dodgers that remember back when. Progress not regress.

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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What started off as a well written piece, albeit, in my opinion misguided, has now degenerated into flights of fantasy, ill thought out reasons based on nothing more than a selfish viewpoint, and an obvious contempt for the people who actually provided him with the freedom to express his opinions ……… even if he can't be bothered to explain them to us. The OP shouldn't be surprised if it's suggested that he does indeed remain an EU citizen …. somewhere in the EU should suit just fine!

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*heshire baldie By *heshire baldie  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"What started off as a well written piece, albeit, in my opinion misguided, has now degenerated into flights of fantasy, ill thought out reasons based on nothing more than a selfish viewpoint, and an obvious contempt for the people who actually provided him with the freedom to express his opinions ……… even if he can't be bothered to explain them to us. The OP shouldn't be surprised if it's suggested that he does indeed remain an EU citizen …. somewhere in the EU should suit just fine!"

No, it hasn’t

(Currently in good humour while enjoying the sun on my patio and a delicious cup of tea)

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By (user no longer on site) 7 weeks ago

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Similar actually, whilst listening to the cricket …. completely off topic …. what is it with female commentators on men's sport? I can't take them seriously, and to be frank, I find them annoying.

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By  *ountain    profile verified by photo premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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The caravanggio is back on the road.

Only its gone up a one way country lane, the lane is getting narrower and narrower, but it knows only one way. It was five years old when

Nasty step daddy europe married mummy but he remembers daddy britain so well. He'll just put on

some elgar on the radio and a lovely pair of blinkers. Bliss.

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Similar actually, whilst listening to the cricket …. completely off topic …. what is it with female commentators on men's sport? I can't take them seriously, and to be frank, I find them annoying."

Agreed. Women commentators on rugby do my head in and can ruin a game. Too windy here to sit on my patio

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By *adforu  (M) 7 weeks ago

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no that is his Lass, works in her pals chippie in sussex or somewhere near.

HONESTLY! IT'S TRUE. MUST BE IT WAS IN THE SUN!

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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I accept that Mr CB, Mr C and myself have gone off topic but two other posters have gone off at such a tangent I think they might be in another galaxy

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By *rossthefreak  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"Good for you. A thoughtful contribution.

xxx"

Thank you

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By *rossthefreak  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

I will never support the theft of my EU citizenship rights, freedoms and protections, and I know I am not alone in that. The enemy have still not given any factual benefits to leaving and show no sign of ever doing so.

I support this statement wholeheartedly and it is theft. Rights and freedoms given to us by the establishment taken away by family members ex friends and random strangers instigated by people who do not represent my views.

Thank you

All this has done is divide the country split family, friends and communities caused a hostile angry mood across the nation. It’s Brought about a rise in right wing views that haven’t been seen since the NF days.

Now in my late 30s my views are well and truly not changeable. I was brought up in a working class family that voted Tory?????? The me, me, money, more now generation. My parents were racist, homophobic father was sexist and narrow minded but they defended their views because they had pride in British values, and traditional family values. I grew up around this and started taking an interest in politics, education policy, social norms. Things were happening not a fan of Blair but I think things started their with him. He grabbed the young vote.

From there successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept,welcome,embrace and diversity. And these things have been enshrined in law.

What we have now is a generation coming of age after being taught to accept that are hearing how so many people want the “good old days, when we were a great nation” come on people. No one I have heard talking voted for independent trade deals. All I hear is close the borders, send them back, bring back the death penalty and blue passports.

Get real the empire is dead thankfully. I don’t want to live in “little Britain” how about the government let the remainders continue as eu citizens and pay a small personal fee for all the rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen and strip the leavers of all eu privileges and give them a non eu passport. Failing that agree with the eu a relocation package for those who wish to remain in the eu a bit like the “£10 poms” back in the good old days.

A lot of you guys on here can probably remember when homosexuality was illegal. What a thought sex between 2 consenting adults punishable by a prison sentence, yes back in the good old days. Or pak** bashing Or queer bashing was common, a pass time of my father and stepfather in their youth. Back in the good old days when all you had to do to become middle class was buy your own council house and vote Tory.

To end this my mother’s views have done a complete 360 and my sister was brought up not being exposed to detrimental ideals and has grown to be a well rounded open minded remainer as I am as my wife is and as my mother is.

This is going to affect generations to come but not in my name. Yes I will continue to waste my vote on the Liberal Democrat’s in each and every vote as I have done since coming of age

That was a good interesting post. We’ve become too used to one-liner rhetoric and snipes recently. "

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By *rossthefreak  (M) 7 weeks ago

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"

I will never support the theft of my EU citizenship rights, freedoms and protections, and I know I am not alone in that. The enemy have still not given any factual benefits to leaving and show no sign of ever doing so.

I support this statement wholeheartedly and it is theft. Rights and freedoms given to us by the establishment taken away by family members ex friends and random strangers instigated by people who do not represent my views. Thank you you do raise some interesting and valid points here. They may require some further discussion or may not

All this has done is divide the country split family, friends and communities caused a hostile angry mood across the nation. It’s Brought about a rise in right wing views that haven’t been seen since the NF days.

Now in my late 30s my views are well and truly not changeable. I was brought up in a working class family that voted Tory?????? The me, me, money, more now generation. My parents were racist, homophobic father was sexist and narrow minded but they defended their views because they had pride in British values, and traditional family values. I grew up around this and started taking an interest in politics, education policy, social norms. Things were happening not a fan of Blair but I think things started their with him. He grabbed the young vote.

From there successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept,welcome,embrace and diversity. And these things have been enshrined in law.

What we have now is a generation coming of age after being taught to accept that are hearing how so many people want the “good old days, when we were a great nation” come on people. No one I have heard talking voted for independent trade deals. All I hear is close the borders, send them back, bring back the death penalty and blue passports.

Get real the empire is dead thankfully. I don’t want to live in “little Britain” how about the government let the remainders continue as eu citizens and pay a small personal fee for all the rights and freedoms that are about to be stolen and strip the leavers of all eu privileges and give them a non eu passport. Failing that agree with the eu a relocation package for those who wish to remain in the eu a bit like the “£10 poms” back in the good old days.

A lot of you guys on here can probably remember when homosexuality was illegal. What a thought sex between 2 consenting adults punishable by a prison sentence, yes back in the good old days. Or pak** bashing Or queer bashing was common, a pass time of my father and stepfather in their youth. Back in the good old days when all you had to do to become middle class was buy your own council house and vote Tory.

To end this my mother’s views have done a complete 360 and my sister was brought up not being exposed to detrimental ideals and has grown to be a well rounded open minded remainer as I am as my wife is and as my mother is.

This is going to affect generations to come but not in my name. Yes I will continue to waste my vote on the Liberal Democrat’s in each and every vote as I have done since coming of age

Their is one major problem with your well written piece …….. you have not experienced life prior to Maastricht.

Other areas for debate are, for example, whether "successive governments spent so much time and effort educated the young not to discriminate and not to hate, but to accept, welcome, and embrace diversity", is a good thing. From a lot of people's perspective, it isn't. All the effort that was expended on trying to get multiculturalism to succeed was a complete and utter waste and only resulted in sowing the seeds for what has now blossomed, a ghetto mentality, which in itself promotes racial hatred and further separatist factions. Multiculturalism is at the root of many of the problems that this country faces. We even have different cultures within our own native ethnicity, nowadays, which simply cannot be right if we're looking to achieve a social model that promotes harmony. We need to rediscover a national identity, and that cannot be achieved by further dilution of ethnicity, the EU being a prime example of that dilution."

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By *rossthefreak  (M) 7 weeks ago

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Sorry about those blank quotes something random happened. Apologies to anyone I may have offended I was just giving my 2 pence worth but no offence to anyone is meant young old leave remain. Things seem to get quite tense on here at times.

Thanks to those that liked my post apologies to anyone who didn’t or was offended by it.

Caravaggio you raised some interesting points something for thinking about before I post on a whim.

There was no malice intended in my post, frustration, sadness anger at the system for allowing the general public to make such an important decision (everyone must agree it was an important decision) and in doing such it shifts the blame of the backlash away from the party and onto the public ultimately causing division.

Once again apologies to anyone I may have offended.

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By *ikkey69  (M) 7 weeks ago

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It was Cameron in his usual pompous way that thought the british public would vote to remain because he wanted to remain!

He had no plan B, and when the british people kicked him in the soft dangley bits in his trousers, he then fucked off!!

So its his fault all this mess, he should be made to do what he promised, “whatever the result,we will honour”

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*ordic-knight By *ordic-knight   premium paying member (M) 7 weeks ago

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_rossthefreak:- I wouldn't have thought anyone was offended. At least I hope they weren't. So no need to apologise.

It is a difficult subject and it seems to bring out the worse in people. Then again politics in general invariably do. It does seem to be that some are being rather fanatical at both ends of the argument whereas most people, at a guess, want the whole sorry subject sorted out one way or another so that they can get on with their lives.

It was a great pity that the referendum was ever called as it seems to have caused more problems than enough. I remember at the time it was suggested allowing 16yo and 17yo to vote and exclude OAPs. Probably would have got a rather different result although quite a lot of youngsters are in favour of leaving and probably a similar number of older people wanted a remain.

On the weekend after the vote I told an old friend [she'd just turned 70] and former employee that I had voted to leave. Her reply was "do YOU realised that YOU have just ruined the future of this country and put millions out of work!" Obviously I did not realise this this catastrophe, for which we still await, was exclusively my fault. I would describe myself as a very moderate Brexiteer and I still wish parliament had seen fit to ratify Mrs May's deal [which would have allayed your worse fears] and that it could be all done and dusted by now.

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